Starfire 3-12 string?

AcornHouse

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Saw this pic of Carol Kaye in FB with what looks like a Starfire III 12 string. Custom order? Something else? Hans?

4931aa01-279b-4129-8314-7cd082c88d41.jpeg
 

gjmalcyon

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Saw this pic of Carol Kaye in FB with what looks like a Starfire III 12 string. Custom order? Something else? Hans?


From this Vintage Guitar interview (emphasis added):

[FONT=&quot]What was your basic rig during your session days as a guitarist?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I started with the Epiphone Emperor and Gibson amp, and quickly bought a Fender Jazzmaster. It had that doo-hicky on it and sounded good, but I changed the pickups for more potent ones. I got a Gibson 12-string acoustic and turned a Guild electric into a 12-string electric before they ever made electric 12-strings for studio work.

Here's a different version of the same photo (image copyright Getty Images):

FYCp9xJl.jpg
[/FONT]
 

gjmalcyon

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So what did she play it on?

Not sure - cannot find location/date info for that photo.

In the Vintage Guitar interview, she does talk about some of the sessions she played 12-string on:

"Probably the ones people really know were rhythm guitar on the Righteous Brothers’ “You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feelin'” and “Unchained Melody,” the 12-string guitar bridge on Herb Alpert’s “Mexican Shuffle,” rhythm guitar on Wayne Newton’s “Danke Schoen.” I did electric 12-string fills on a lot of Sonny and Cher’s hits, and I played acoustic guitar doubling with the bass line on “The Beat Goes On.” That was my bass line; Sonny had the bass player, Bob West, use it. I played electric rhythm guitar on Bob B. Soxx & the Blue Jeans’ “Zippety Doo Dah,” and lead guitar on “No Matter What Shape Your Stomach’s In” by the T-Bones, but I think that was only for the ad, as Tommy Tedesco played the lead on the original recording. I did electric 12-string work on Frank Zappa’s first two albums, rhythm guitar on the Beach Boys’ “Surfin’ U.S.A.” – that’s Billy Strange on solo guitar – and some lead jazz guitar on the Quincy Jones movie, The Pawnbroker."

In other, sadder Wrecking Crew news, drummer Hal Blaine has passed away.
 
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walrus

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I think it's great that she remembers who played what - I find it very interesting!

And yes, RIP Hal Blaine...

walrus
 

sailingshoes72

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That was a good read Fro. I didn't know that she was a jazz and session guitarist before she took up the bass. It is interesting that back then, in the 60's, they referred to the "sting bass" (acoustic) and the "Fender bass" (electric) when doing session work and often on the album liner notes as well!

This article about Ray Bonneville popped up while I was reading the "Vintage Guitar" article. In the photo, he appears to be playing a mid-50's Aristocrat M-75 with black pickup covers. I have a few of his albums. I like the deep groove of his roots-style music.

https://www.vintageguitar.com/20563/ray-bonneville-2/
 

SFIV1967

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This article about Ray Bonneville popped up while I was reading the "Vintage Guitar" article. In the photo, he appears to be playing a mid-50's Aristocrat M-75 with black pickup covers.
He calls her a 1959 one in a YouTube video. But also based on the pickguard I would say it is clearly a 1956 or latest an early 1957 one as in 1957 they started with the Chesterfield inlay or the diagonal script logo inlay. Bridge and pickups or just pickup covers are obviously replaced.

RAY_BONNEVILLE_01.jpg

Copyright Rodney Burseil

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Hello Chris,

That guitar was made during a period that Guild did not have an electric 12-string as part of the line. It was made from a T-100 by Milt Owen at the request of Carol Kaye.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
I was there in Fife and Nichols when Carol picked up the converted Guild 12. She was coming down the stairs from Milt Owens tiny shop above the guitar shop and Seymour Drugan, the store manager, introduced us. I was 14. Mr Drugan was a great subtle mentor to me, showing me that music was a life and guitars could be at the center of it. I hung around there whenever I could and I knew to be respectful there, if no where else; Mr. Drugan always introduced me to any stars that came in. Seeing Carol's converted 12 Guild let me to have Milt Owen do the same thing to a sunburst I bought a year or so later for that purpose. BTW, Milt Owen did something more interesting than Carol's explanation that he "fitted the extra six strings on the peghead." He actually extended the peghead by splicing in an extra piece of mahogany and refinishing the new longer head. That way he kept the logo and shape intact. Amazing work, beautifuly done; an inspiration for my later work as a luthier.
 

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gjmalcyon

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Welcome! Stick around - nice folks around here. That's a great story about Carol Kaye - I hope we hear more.
 

Nuuska

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Welcome Harry 😍

Fine looking instruments - makes me think, that you are the guy who can produce acoustic guitar for some LTG-fellow who's suffering with shoulder & elbow problems. I mean that the body could have similar contours like Stratocaster has..
 

wileypickett

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Carol Kaye is a legend, but I was surprised to learn that she played on early Mothers records. I didn't know Zappa ever used studio musicians on his albums.
 

fronobulax

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Carol Kaye is a legend, but I was surprised to learn that she played on early Mothers records. I didn't know Zappa ever used studio musicians on his albums.


That link credits Tommy Tedesco and Dennis Budimir as session musicians as well.


Discusses studio musicians on that recording as well.

Your surprise may be warranted and it is likely that Zappa did not have the level of control over his first album that he had over subsequent ones.
 

fronobulax

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"On the Freak Out! album Frank had his own bass player and drummer but the rest were studio musicians: Tommy Tedesco on lead guitar on Zappa's recordings, Dennis Budimir and Carol Kaye on 12-strings. . . ."

You mean Jimmy Carl Black and Elliot Ingber didn't play on the album?!

No. I'm inclined to go with Wikipedia (as linked above) that cites the liner notes and says

In addition to the Mothers, some tracks featured a "Mothers' Auxiliary" that consisted of additional session players, including noted "Wrecking Crew" members Gene Estes, Carol Kaye and Mac Rebennack (aka Dr. John), guitarist Neil Levang, and jazz-soul pianists Eugene DiNovi and Les McCann, with vocal contributions by Paul Butterfield, Kim Fowley, Jeannie Vassoir and future Mother Jim Sherwood. Several orchestral musicians, who were also mostly credited as members of the Auxiliary (including their contractor, Benjamin Barrett), also made contributions to several songs at certain sessions, chiefly in the form of backing tracks on those songs.

I think it is reasonable to assume the studio musicians were augmenting the band and not replacing them (as compared to the early Monkees).
 

wileypickett

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I'm actually kind of relieved to read this -- I discovered the Mothers as a teenager (starting with Absolutely Free when it was issued) and would -- for some reason -- have been kind of bummed out to know my assumptions about who played on those early albums were wrong.

My favorite Mothers albums are still the first seven or eight. I stopped listening to Zappa, post Mothers, around Grand Wazoo.
 
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fronobulax

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I'm actually kind of relieved to read this -- I discovered the Mothers as a teenager (starting with Absolutely Free when it was issued) and would -- for some reason -- have been kind of bummed out to know my assumptions about who played on them were wrong.

My favorite Mothers albums are still the first seven or eight. I stopped listening to Zappa, post Mothers, around Grand Wazoo.

I pretty much followed the same arc.
 
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