Grover Rotomatic swap

parker_knoll

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Hi all, this is spinning from the the discussion that closes this thread, but I thought it rather easier to start a new one more relevant to the topic: http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?197685-NGD-Starfire-III-90/page11

Unsatisfied with the slippage in my Grovers and not crazy about the look, I decided to look for alternatives and hit on two that claimed to be vintage styled tuners that could fit a Rotomatic holes:

1. Grover Vintage Deluxe
https://www.grotro.com/Grover/VINTAGE/Vintage-135-Series
https://www.grotro.com/Grover/VINTAGE/Vintage-Deluxe-136-Series

I bought the 136 as I prefer the button tuners. Both only available in nickel or gold.

2. Gotoh SX510
https://g-gotoh.com/international/product-category/sx510-series

Also, only available in nickel or gold with two different button types.

The Gotoh are harder to find and about 80% more expensive. Both advertise as drop in replacements for the Rotomatic.

The long and the short...

Both do fit the Rotomatic holes exactly

With the Grovers, the lower hole is not in the same place as the originals. It's an annoying 0.5mm or so out. You could get it to fit with some bodging.

The Gotohs are AN EXACT REPLACEMENT FOR ROTOMATICS. I was able to drop it in without issue and use the same screw holes.

Some thoughts and illustrations below - apologies my phone camera is not amazing.

1. Uninstalled, the Rotomatic fittings look a bit nicer - domed top to the capstan, bevelled washer, bevelled nut - while the Gotoh hardware is flat. The Rotomatic metal is slightly thicker, meaning YOU CANNOT USE THE ROTOMATIC BUSHINGS, NUTS ETC. WITH THE GOTOHS

The old Rotos were chrome, and the Gotohs are only available in nickel. However, the rest of the hardware on the guitar is either nickel or aluminium, so this is actually a better fit overall.

The Gotoh's capstans are just slightly shorter. You can only squeeze about two turns in on the low E.

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2. Installed, however, I like the minimalism of the Gotohs

32408097497_ffdde1d9ab_c.jpg


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3. The Grover Vintage Deluxe feel bit cheap and the casting is not beautiful, at least on the unseen side

47350015171_82fa8897ee.jpg


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At this point, this installation is completely reversible. Should I decide to make it permanent, I could angle the tuners around the headstock rather than keeping the straight line arrangement. Personally, I think this looks nicer and it would give a little more space around the two nearest the top of the headstock. Obviously this would require two new holes, not just one.

Finally, and most importantly, while obviously brand new, the Gotohs feel great with zero slippage. When I decided to this, it was a whim and I wasn't hugely committed to it. However, I'm actually really pleased with the results.
 
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chazmo

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I think the open-back Gotohs are the right choice! It's funny, I always thought nickel and chrome would look the same, but the difference in color is obvious in your picture. Thanks for showing that.

Yes, you should angle the tuners around the headstock (as you said) and I think these will be terrific. The only thing I would've done differently is that I think I would've looked for the slotted-post versions of the Gotohs if I'd been in your shoes... I think they are/were available for the 6-string tuners, though I'm not sure.

In any case, nice job!
 

GAD

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I'm still floored that you don't like the Rotomatics. I applaud your attention to detail and finding a solution that works for you, though!
 

parker_knoll

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It's upside down, Parker. The "crown" should mimic the headstock.

It was like that when I bought it, I SWEAR!

Already rectified. It's not a proper truss rod anyway because it doesnt have a nice design and say Starfire on it like the old ones :)
 

SFIV1967

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Thanks for reporting the details, it's very good to know such things.

But please, turn that poor TRC around ! It hurts that way! (EDIT: Oh, I see, already take care of)

TRCPD.jpg


Ralf
 
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parker_knoll

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I'm still floored that you don't like the Rotomatics. I applaud your attention to detail and finding a solution that works for you, though!

When I took them out I checked again and there was definitely slippage; plus in general I find them too chunky in appearance. Less is more with tuning machines for me.
 

adorshki

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It was like that when I bought it, I SWEAR!
I believe you.
I swear to the one true guitar god it's so common these days I think people turn 'em upside down thinking they're wrong when they see 'em right side up!
Maybe they check internet images and see a majority of 'em upside down and figure that's the norm?
Yeesh.
 

dbirchett

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Biggest problem that I have with Rotomatics is that they are HEAVY. I have a Mossman 12 string that has 12 rotomatics. That is one really neck heavy guitar. I largely eliminated the problem by purchasing new tuner buttons in ebony that really reduced the weight. Made it much more playable.
 

Nuuska

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AAaahhhh - soooo much better now . thx!
 

Quantum Strummer

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IMO Gotoh makes better "Grovers" than whoever owns that brand. Same with "Kluson Deluxes." The ones I like best are stock on my Ibanez AR-300: Rotomatic in appearance but vintage Sta-Tite in behavior, with center holes & a slot on top as well as the usual side holes. I string the guitar Fender style.

Wonder if these SX-510s will retrofit the Sta-Tite-alikes on my NS Aristocrat?

-Dave-
 
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parker_knoll

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davismanLV

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I know you wanted a different look, but if anyone is unhappy with their Grovers, they do come with a lifetime warranty. Contact the company and they will give you a return number and repair or replace (at their discretion) any defective tuners. Just throwing that out there.......
 
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kakerlak

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Because I don't like those. I specifically wanted a vintage look

FYI - Grover is now making a milk-bottle Rotomatic that pretty closely matches their '50s originals. I will admit that new Grovers, while "good enough" are not usually quite as slick as Sperzels and Gotohs and I've felt more worn out Rotomatics than any other sealed mechanism tuner. I assume the milk bottle Rotos have the same internal mechanisms as the regular ones.

[EDIT] and while I'm complaining about rotos, as Don said, they're heavy! I swapped my wife's SG back to Klusons (already had the original screwholes) from modern Rotomatics to shave some weight and b/c the Grovers were completely worn out.
 
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