Is It Really A Crack When........

richardp69

Enlightened Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
6,007
Reaction score
5,965
Location
Barton City, Michigan
So, I've had numerous guitars over the year where the glue joining the two piece top has weakened or separated to the point where it looks like a crack and it always happens from the bottom of the bridge to the bottom of the soundboard. Is it proper to call it a crack??? I've been saying it's a seam separation I guess because "crack" to me sounds like the guitar was abused or not properly humidified and neither of those were ever the cause, at least in my examples they weren't. But, I've been told by more than one person that it really is a crack and should be explained as such.

By the way, I've found that particular occurrence in far more Guilds than any other brands I've owned. But then again, I've always had far more Guilds than any other brand. I saw it twice in Martins I've owned and never on a Gibson.

Just curious what ya'll think.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,791
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Is it proper to call it a crack??? I've been saying it's a seam separation I guess because "crack" to me sounds like the guitar was abused or not properly humidified and neither of those were ever the cause, at least in my examples they weren't.
But, I've been told by more than one person that it really is a crack and should be explained as such.
Maybe there's an accepted custom of calling it a crack regardless of where and why it happened, but I think it's a semantic issue.
I'd agree with you on calling it a seam separation because it's not caused by wood shrinking and separating along a grain line in what is supposed to be a solid piece of wood, it's separating where 2 pieces were joined by glue.
In fact, thinking further on it, where's the sense in calling it a "crack" and then explaining it's actually a seam separation?
If it was me I'd stick to my guns, and tell the folks who want you to say it's a crack to buy it so they can say whatever they want about it.
:glee:
By the way, I've found that particular occurrence in far more Guilds than any other brands I've owned. But then again, I've always had far more Guilds than any other brand. I saw it twice in Martins I've owned and never on a Gibson.
Just curious what ya'll think.
I hate to say it but along with the (stable) bridge lift in my F65ce, I noticed the beginning of that dreaded seam separation on my F65ce myself about a month ago, and in this case there's a parallel crack line about 3/8" off center from the seam on the bass side.
No actual separation but definitely visible as a potential problem.
Yes humidification was the first thing that occurred to me because I virtually never humidify 'em, not even supposed to need to where I live in CA, but have also started to suspect that perhaps maple needs more humidifying than 'hog..
Also think the top's a little thinner than average on these, and that the shrinkage mechanism may be that the maple tends to draw humidity to itself at the expense of the top.
Have been reading that this atmospheric river bringing so much rain through these last couple of weeks has also been driving humidity up into the 70's and even '80's % ranges and so have been leaving guitar out in open case, pending investing an in-case gadget.
It actually came with a soundhole humidifier but it wasn't the correct oval soundhole version, and I worried about it leaking and staining the back anyway so tossed it.
 

Grassdog

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
550
Reaction score
118
Location
Cincinnati, OH
I think as long as you photograph the area really well and address it upfront in the comments, you're probably okay calling it whatever you want. Most buyers can make up their minds for themselves from good photos. You do want to check it from the inside with a mirror and light just to be sure there's nothing visible from the inside. You have to assume the buyer will take it to a luthier (or guitar tech if that's your preferred term) and they will do an inside inspection.
 

Rayk

Enlightened Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
5,769
Reaction score
1,173
I'd call it a separation .
 

Cougar

Enlightened Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
5,323
Reaction score
3,016
Location
North Idaho
Guild Total
5
...I saw it twice in Martins I've owned and never on a Gibson.

The only place I've seen it was on a Gibson Songwriter 12-string I bought from a GC on the other side of the country. Apparently happened during shipping? Anyway, I returned it to my local GC and got a full refund. And got an even better Gibson Songwriter 12-string from CME. :tiger:
 

chazmo

Super Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
25,472
Reaction score
7,131
Location
Central Massachusetts
I think as long as you photograph the area really well and address it upfront in the comments, you're probably okay calling it whatever you want. Most buyers can make up their minds for themselves from good photos. You do want to check it from the inside with a mirror and light just to be sure there's nothing visible from the inside. You have to assume the buyer will take it to a luthier (or guitar tech if that's your preferred term) and they will do an inside inspection.
I pretty much agree with this. Separation and crack are the same thing, although yeah the opening along the seam is probably the most common type of crack for dehydrated guitars. Indeed, as dog says, as long as you disclose it, that's fine.
 

Rayk

Enlightened Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
5,769
Reaction score
1,173
I would think that glue type and if it's a top , thickness would come into play .
The thinner the top = Less surface area possibly making it more sensitive to humidity and +/- temp changes .

Throw in incomplete curing which "could" happen within large batches along with a slight error in the gluing process and I could see this happing .

Thing is in most cases the glued joint is stronger the wood itself but again type of glue used is everything.

I am now standing behind my newly acquired heavy duty plexiglass inclosesure , fire at will ! Lol
 

Rayk

Enlightened Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
5,769
Reaction score
1,173
"Some call it a spear, some call it an arrow." ('60s Wrigley Chewing Gum ad.)

True that ! Lol

Though I do say there's a difference which of course would be from a technical aspect lol
 

Rayk

Enlightened Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
5,769
Reaction score
1,173
True that ! Lol

Though I do say there's a difference which of course would be from a technical aspect lol

Sorry foes this help ? Lol
Qoute " Crack, a fracture or discontinuation in a body but A fracture is the separation of an object or material into two or more pieces under the action of stress. ... In metalworking a fracture is a complete or almost separation of an object. Whereas a crack is a discontinuation in the workpiece"
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
To me, and I know I have a problem with words and meanings, a crack occurs in something that was originally a single piece whereas a separation occurs when two pieces that were joined are no longer joined. The distinction is important because in some circumstances an object with a repaired crack will never be as solid/stable as the original, whereas it is reasonable to hope that a separation that is repaired using the technology originally used to combine the pieces will result in something comparable to the original.

So if I use one word to describe a guitar and someone tells me I'm wrong I'm going to tell them I don't agree with them and ask whether they want to buy the guitar or is this all about their ego trip from arguing with me?

That said, understanding that the point is to create a useful and honest description and actually sell the instrument, if I used one word and someone complained I'd just say "OK" and bite my tongue. But I would still use what I thought the right word was and hope that any dispute resolution process was not going to uphold a charge of "not as described" because I said one and not the other.
 

Curlington

Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
397
Reaction score
105
Location
Delmarva peninsula, USA
A seam separation cracks the finish. A crack cracks the wood. It is a practical distinction. A finish crack does not affect the structural integrity. A crack in the wood must be cleated to restore structural integrity, or it will likely get worse and worse. How I think of it, anyway.
 

bobouz

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
2,230
Reaction score
1,827
The only guitar I've ever had that started separating at a body glue joint was a 2007 Les Paul Double Cut. The problem appeared after five years.

The two-piece solid mahogany body began splitting at the lower portion of the back, near the endpin. It was under warranty, so I shipped it back to Gibson, where they determined the cause was improperly dried wood. Rather than trying to repair it, they elected to simply replace the instrument.
 
Top