F50R New Hartford slightly superior to Westerly JF55 tonewise?

chazmo

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So no showdown?

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That's not a noife..... This is a noife... :)
 

adorshki

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That's not a noife..... This is a noife... :)
Hard to believe there may be folks here who've never seen Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, but just in case...



And by the way it was a deep deep "in joke" at the time that that's Ted (Lurch) Cassidy fighting Butch Cassidy....

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:glee:
 
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geoff2guitar

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Thanks for the info guys... and any chance of getting more info... er....on topic?
 

Rayk

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Just a feeling I seem to get from a few opinions, and maybe I´m wrong , but in your opinion is the F50r from New Hartford slightly superior to the Westerly made JF55? Any differences in tone?

Thanks

I don't believe your going to get a definitive answer here as it's just not a cut and dry answer .

We could say NH had a more preferred tone as the tech along with what musicians wanted meaning modern tone has advanced over the years.

We could say because of the technology that NH crafted more consistent models as to build .

But one being superior over the other could only be divided by one's self or you after playing them .

Some like thicker necks over thin , some like heaver builds over lighter ones .

Some like tone of older models over newer ones . Also there are duds produced out there tone wise from all plants and years .

A good question to ask is who has what model from plant X and what do they like about them .

I like classic trucks but I also want a new truck . :)
 

adorshki

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Thanks for the info guys... and any chance of getting more info... er....on topic?

Spoken like a true gentleman so will respond in the same spirit:
While I agree with Ray's basic premise that it's ultimately going to be up to your ear, off the top of my head I can think of at least 3 guys here who have experience with models from both Westerly and New Hartford and who do believe New Hartfords were "the Best".
2 of 'em are Chazmo and Twocorgiis who've already weighed in; and I could swear Chaz has even cited New Hartford F50's as the "best of the breed." Ahhh, post #7, here, and not the first time he's said it:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?195448-JF-30-12-With-F-412-Comparison

One thing Ray mentioned deserves a bit of expansion:
The issue that every factory had its "duds".
Sure that's inevitable, but on sheer numbers:
A: Guild's production was so much smaller than Gibson and Martin that the actual number of duds out there is going to be pretty low, and
B: Because they were small enough they could pay a lot more attention to each individual piece than either of those "other 2 guys", especially in late Westerly.***
So their percentage of "duds" was exponentially smaller than the other 2 as well.
Here's an article from a '99 Guild Gallery:
http://www.westerlyguildguitars.com/articles/visionofquality.pdf
I also strongly suspect that when it came to their high-end models like the JF-55, that much more care was taken to ensure they'd "represent" well for the brand.
That thing bout JF-55's being under-valued due to being under-recognized appeals to my personal tastes, too.
Always love an underdog.

***and not to say they didn't do this in Corona, Tacoma, and New Hartford, I don't know, and they were certainly still "small enough", but I can present evidence for what they did in late Westerly.
:friendly_wink:
 
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geoff2guitar

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Great stuff Al, that's great info - agree with most things said there! The underdog bit appealed to me as well!

Rayk - also agree with many points you made!
 

Rayk

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Spoken like a true gentleman so will respond in the same spirit:
While I agree with Ray's basic premise that it's ultimately going to be up to your ear, off the top of my head I can think of at least 3 guys here who have experience with models from both Westerly and New Hartford and who do believe New Hartfords were "the Best".
2 of 'em are Chazmo and Twocorgiis who've already weighed in; and I could swear Chaz has even cited New Hartford F50's as the "best of the breed." Ahhh, post #7, here, and not the first time he's said it:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?195448-JF-30-12-With-F-412-Comparison

One thing Ray mentioned deserves a bit of expansion:
The issue that every factory had its "duds".
Sure that's inevitable, but on sheer numbers:
A: Guild's production was so much smaller than Gibson and Martin that the actual number of duds out there is going to be pretty low, and
B: Because they were small enough they could pay a lot more attention to each individual piece than either of those "other 2 guys", especially in late Westerly.***
So their percentage of "duds" was exponentially smaller than the other 2 as well.
Here's an article from a '99 Guild Gallery:
http://www.westerlyguildguitars.com/articles/visionofquality.pdf
I also strongly suspect that when it came to their high-end models like the JF-55, that much more care was taken to ensure they'd "represent" well for the brand.
That thing bout JF-55's being under-valued due to being under-recognized appeals to my personal tastes, too.
Always love an underdog.

***and not to say they didn't do this in Corona, Tacoma, and New Hartford, I don't know, and they were certainly still "small enough", but I can present evidence for what they did in late Westerly.
:friendly_wink:

Just to make sure we're on the same page my meaning of dud was not to explain a plan out bad guitar build wise so much as one that didn't sing like the others . These are just the effects of the woods character as we have discussed before tops off the first two feet of trunk might sing like angels the next 2 ft above sound ok but with less angels these type of duds are the ones the player says yeah or nay to . I should of clarified that lol

Acoustics over resent years have gone through a sound/tone change which they call the "modern tone ". I would think the older Westerlys would carry a more woodier tone and or warmer sound compared to today's more brighter sounding guitars. The later or more recent of the Westerly line might have started that move to the so called modern tone ????

Over all the Westerly owners would have to chime in for me to know if my discription is some what correct lol if not there's that crumbling Cliff edge again ! Lmao .

My unfair comparison of my Westerly D55 and I forget the year the last yr made 200 and ? Anyway my 2016 Blueridge has a Adirondack top where the D55 had a Sitka top both had rosewood backs and sides .

The D55 was great don't get me wrong it was balanced warm and articulate sweet ! My Blueridge was brighter and more sparkly. I lean more to the modern tone guitars . So I sold the D55 . I will own another one though in time .

The Tacoma CV-1 that I loved and sold was definitely warmer them the NH F30 and F30R's that I played . The CV-1 had a 16" lower bout but I don't think that accounts for that kind of difference .

Ok I'm done , thank God I was not drinking and forgive my typos and Ray speak . Lol
 
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Westerly Wood

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Just to make sure we're on the same page my meaning of dud was not to explain a plan out bad guitars build wise so much as one that didn't sing like the others . These are just the effects of the woods character as we have discussed before tops off the first two feet of trunk might sing like angels the next 2 ft above sound ok but with less angels these type duds are the ones the player says yeah or nay . I should of clarified that lol

Acoustic over resent years have gone through a sound/tone change which they call the modern tone . I would think the older Westerlys would carry a more woodier tone and or warmer sound compared to today's more brighter sounding guitars. The later or more recent of the Westerly line might have started that move to the so called modern tone .

Over all the Westerly owners would have to chime in for me to know if my discription is some what correct lol if not there's that crumbling Clif edge again ! Lmao .
My unfair comparison of my Westerly D55 and forget the year the last yr made 200 and ? Anyway my 2016 Blueridge has a Adirondack top where the D55 wise Sitka both rosewood backs and sides .

The D55 was great don't get me wrong it was balanced warm and articulate sweet ! My Blueridge was brighter and more sparkly. I lean more to the modern tone guitars . So I sold the D55 . I will own another one though in time .

The Tacoma CV-1 that I loved and sold was definitely warmer them the NH F30 and F30R that I played . The CV-1 had a 16" lower bout but I don't think the other account for that kind of difference .

Ok I'm done , thank God I was not drinking and forgive my typos and Ray speak . Lol

my Br ('71 D25 all hog flatback dread) is real warm and rather on the dark side tonewise. it took me a long time to really appreciate it. it has a very "woody" sound too, like a Gibson J45, but not as bright. it's hard to say, it is 48 years old tone woods, all solid construction, the top has no doubt opened up decades ago, but every now and then i notice more depth. my hard to say comment is more re this fact: any 48 year old solid wood dread will sound really good, in most cases. regardless of the manufacturer. one would think. what does never cease to amaze me is Guild's build quality even on their lower end models back then. my guild dread would have been the entry level dreadnought in 1971, msrp i think was around $225. I bet you could have got it with case for that or for 200 maybe even less. it has had one neck reset, that i know of. I also like the fact that Guild used truss rods way earlier than Martin did. 70 Martin dreads had to truss at all, and I dont think Martin added the truss till the late 80s. not sure.
 
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Rayk

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my Br ('71 D25 all hog flatback dread) is real warm and rather on the dark side tonewise. it took me a long time to really appreciate it. it has a very "woody" sound too, like a Gibson J45, but not as bright. it's hard to say, it is 48 years old tone woods, all solid construction, the top has no doubt opened up decades ago, but every now and then i notice more depth. my hard to say comment is more re this fact: any 48 year old solid wood dread will sound really good, in most cases. regardless of the manufacturer. one would think. what does never cease to amaze me is Guild's build quality even on their lower end models back then. my guild dread would have been the entry level dreadnought in 1971, msrp i think was around $225. I bet you could have got it with case for that or for 200 maybe even less. it has had one neck reset, that i know of. I also like the fact that Guild used truss rods way earlier than Martin did. 70 Martin dreads had to truss at all, and I dont think Martin added the truss till the late 80s. not sure.


Here here ! The OM-120 all hog I have actually is brighter then I wanted in this case . I want your guitars evilness !!! So the 120 will go up for sale.
 

adorshki

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Just to make sure we're on the same page my meaning of dud was not to explain a plan out bad guitar build wise so much as one that didn't sing like the others . These are just the effects of the woods character as we have discussed before tops off the first two feet of trunk might sing like angels the next 2 ft above sound ok but with less angels these type of duds are the ones the player says yeah or nay to . I should of clarified that lol
Ah, fair enough, but in Westerly's case I think it was very rarely about the wood, at least not while Willie Fritscher was on the job:
http://www.westerlyguildguitars.com/articles/woodselection.pdf
The point there was that the builders in Westerly weren't at the mercy of whatever the wood broker sent 'em, they could rely on Willie to have hand-picked which logs he wanted, at the mill.
Acoustics over resent years have gone through a sound/tone change which they call the "modern tone ". I would think the older Westerlys would carry a more woodier tone and or warmer sound compared to today's more brighter sounding guitars.
I agree about the "modern tone". The idea that Westerlys might sound woodier sound plausible to me, going by my experience with my D25, which is now about 90% of my entire guitar experience.
I always thought it was the woodiest sounding guitar I'd ever played.
The later or more recent of the Westerly line might have started that move to the so called modern tone ????
Actually the late Westerlys saw the development of the "vintage" design principles in the "DV" 's and "GV"'s.
Suspect they started getting "modernized sound" in Tacoma with the adi bracing all around and the introduction of the Contemporary Series (the bolt-on neck and spider-braced top, for benefit of those who don't know about those)
The Tacoma CV-1 that I loved and sold was definitely warmer them the NH F30 and F30R's that I played . The CV-1 had a 16" lower bout but I don't think that accounts for that kind of difference .
Interesting you mentioned that given my speculation about 'em above.
While allowing for our unique individual differences in sound perception, I have to defer to the man who owned one.
Ok I'm done , thank God I was not drinking and forgive my typos and Ray speak . Lol
's OK we wouldn't have it any other way.
The day you show up with perfect composition we'll know you've become a Borg.
 

adorshki

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Here here ! The OM-120 all hog I have actually is brighter then I wanted in this case . I want your guitars evilness !!! So the 120 will go up for sale.

What you don't want to give it a 48 year chance?
Or you could get lucky:
My Corona D40 only needed 7.
 

Rayk

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What you don't want to give it a 48 year chance?
Or you could get lucky:
My Corona D40 only needed 7.
Nah I think she's gunna round out but pretty much remain the same . She's got killer overtones plays great but I've become a bit of acoustic snob and I can no longer help myself my pinky is out and it means business! lol
 

chazmo

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. . . I could swear Chaz has even cited New Hartford F50's as the "best of the breed." Ahhh, post #7, here, and not the first time he's said it:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?195448-JF-30-12-With-F-412-Comparison

. . .
Just FYI, my "best of breed" comment was meant for the (maple) F-50 from NH. That instrument outshined all the older F-50s (and JF-65s) I've played over the years.

I'm not sure I ever tried NH version of the (rosewood) F-50R. I'm sure it's wonderful, but I have played some world-rocking older versions of that axe that would make me hesitate to call the NH version best of breed.
 

adorshki

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Just FYI, my "best of breed" comment was meant for the (maple) F-50 from NH. That instrument outshined all the older F-50s (and JF-65s) I've played over the years.

I'm not sure I ever tried NH version of the (rosewood) F-50R. I'm sure it's wonderful, but I have played some world-rocking older versions of that axe that would make me hesitate to call the NH version best of breed.

Humbly acknowledged and apologies, I hate mis-quoting people.
Do you want my knife?
 

mavuser

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I played a NH F-50-R a while back and that particular guitar did not do much for me (however the NH F-512 blew me away).

I also played a JF-55 and again, in addition to a crazy slim neck, for me personally just no real magic.

i like the rosewood dreads!
 

twocorgis

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I played a NH F-50-R a while back and that particular guitar did not do much for me (however the NH F-512 blew me away).

I also played a JF-55 and again, in addition to a crazy slim neck, for me personally just no real magic.

i like the rosewood dreads!

That's true Eric. I like my New Hartford D50 Standard better than any of the three New Hartford F50Rs that I've played, and it's way better than the '73 D50 that I've owned since I was a teenager. The NH D50 is going to go on the block soon, after Mike sorts some minor stuff, and it's going to pain me to sell it. I don't need two D50s, and I have way too many emotional ties to my old '73 to sell that one.
 
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txbumper57

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Hey Geoff, To answer your original question in my personal opinion and no one else's from someone who has compared multiple Westerly and New Hartford F50r's/JF55's, Yes. I believe the New Hartford F50R models to sound better to my ears and play better to my touch. So much so that I actually own 2 of them, One in natural and one in Burst finish.

There are significant differences between the two factories and the material/techniques they used to build the F50R/JF55 models, heck there are even significant differences in how Westerly made that model throughout their production period that lends to different characteristics even though they all Look "Similar". Just some of the differences are Body depth, Neck profiles, nut width, Hardware, Thickness of the body wood pieces themselves, Materials used for the necks, Single or Dual action truss rods, Material used for inner bracing, shape of the inner bracing whether it is scalloped or not, Inner bracing design and layout, Material used for saddles and string nuts, Finish Thickness, Fret material thickness and height as well as cosmetic differences in rosettes and headstocks among many others.

These may sound like minor differences but when you add them all up together they have a big impact on how you feel the guitar plays and sounds not to mention the overall weight of the guitar in it's finished form. There are quite a few folks that refer to some of the 70's/80's Guilds as being built like tanks and as heavy as one too. The Tacoma made and New Hartford made models from around late 2006 in Tacoma through the end of production at New Hartford in 2014 are considerably lighter than their earlier predecessors from Westerly in my experience. I'm sure there are anomalies out there but I think it is safe to say the majority of the builds fall in that line.

In the spring of 2013 when I was hunting for my F50R I tried 7 different models ranging from 1973-2000 that were all built in Westerly including both JF55's and F50R's. All of those guitars were in excellent playing condition with some being played a bit more than others but they were all in excellent condition. The tone did vary from guitar to guitar slightly but relatively they all sounded similar to each other and pretty good might I add as well. The problem was none of them came close to the tone and ease of playability of a brand new New Hartford F50R model that I had put my hands on at my local mom and pop shop and that guitar hadn't been "played in" like the used models had. I thought maybe it was just that one N.H. model F50R so maybe I better try a few more. I am lucky enough to live in a place where I had several Guild Dealers relatively close to me so I ventured out one Saturday and wound up playing 5 different N.H. made F50R's that were made from 2012-2013. They all had that same Amazing tone that the first one I played at my local shop had. I was so impressed that I didn't mind paying the extra money for a New one as opposed to the discounted price for an older used Westerly made model. In 2013 my F50r sounded Amazing, 6 years later every time I pick it up it amazes me how it has become even better over time. It is my number one go to RW Jumbo guitar for stage or home playing and will continue to be. When New Hartford closed down I started looking for a backup for it just in case anything ever happened to my number one I would have a replacement. I was lucky enough to trade a member here for theirs and it sounds just as good as my number one does.

The only thing I regret about buying a New Hartford F50R is that it opened up my eyes to the world of New Hartford made Guild Guitars and started me down a path to where I now have several different models that were made in New Hartford including a F50, 2 F512's, F212XL, a resonator, a couple of Dreads, and a couple of Orpheums that have taken up residence in the back bedroom with the rest of my collection, LOL! I have most of them listed in my signature.


Best of luck with your search and I hope this info helps a bit. Ultimately if you can try them out in person it would be the best situation. If you can't, make sure you purchase online from a place that offers a good return policy like reverb or ebay, even a mom and pop shop that honors returns would work as well.

All of the above is merely my opinion and like always everyone will have their own. Best of luck Geoff!

TX
 

geoff2guitar

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Wow! Thanks TX, you really have done some research over the years with those different era Guilds! Guess I'm just going to have to wait to get my hands on an F50r NH sunburst....just gotta have patience, I suppose! Can't find one anywhere at the mo ....
 
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