F50r

stevem5000

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I'm kinda in the market for an F50R....I found one but it's advertised as "Navarre"...
I've run into the term Navarre a few times...but I don't know what it means
as far as Guild models are concerned...

Can anyone enlighten me please...??
 

chazmo

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It's just part of the model name, Steve... And not used often here since, well, the F-50 is such an iconic and well-known model.

I googled it, and it's a town in Spain. My guess is that the guys were paying homage to some of the guitar-making tradition that came from Spain, but that's a wild guess.
 

Stuball48

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Think the F50 Navarre was the top of the line Flat top when introduced. You said F50R and assume you mean rosewood. Just be sure on the wood. F50 Navarre is maple I think.
 

SFIV1967

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Just be sure on the wood. F50 Navarre is maple I think.
Look in Hans' book pages 115 and 116 ! Both were called Navarre. The Navarre F-50 was introduced 1954 and the Navarre F-50R in 1965. Mind, also the F-48 model was called Navarre.

And as Chazmo said, the model names are Spanish areas. (Navarre, Valencia, Aragon, Granada, Cordoba)

Ralf
 
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adorshki

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Look in Hans' book pages 115 and 116 ! Both were called Navarre. The Navarre F-50 was introduced 1954 and the Navarre F-50R in 1965. Mind, also the F-48 model was called Navarre.

And as Chazmo said, the model names are Spanish areas. (Navarre, Valencia, Aragon, Granada, Cordoba)

Ralf

Right, the province names were associated with a given model, Navarre F50, Valencia F40 , and Aragon F30 , but as far as I know they never used "Granada" or "Cordoba" (which was actually known for its leather)
They fell out of use and Guild even stopped using 'em in their marketing lit by the late '70's.
They were revived starting with the "Valencia" in '97 to help promote the capabilities of the new Nashville Custom Shop, died off again in Corona, and were revived in Tacoma with the F30 Aragon and the "Bluegrass Special" and "Bluegrass Jubilee" D50's and D40's, 2 other traditional Guild model names.
Don't think they ever revived the use of "Navarre" for the F50, though.

It's just part of the model name, Steve... And not used often here since, well, the F-50 is such an iconic and well-known model.
I googled it, and it's a town in Spain. My guess is that the guys were paying homage to some of the guitar-making tradition that came from Spain, but that's a wild guess.
Yeah I've mentioned that before, there's not really any other conclusion to be logically drawn.
I don't expect it's anywhere on the label. So it has no meaning? What good is it?
Suspect the rationale was that Spain is the country most identified with the development of the modern guitar, enhanced by being the birthplace of the flamenco tradition.
Different regions had their own local flamenco traditions and styles.
According to his obituary Guild's legendary Chief Designer Carlo Greco didn't come to America until '58, so he wasn't involved in choosing those model names, but Hans has mentioned before that he was schooled in the Spanish construction techniques himself, and to this day, if you really want to establish your creds as a classical luthier, you go to Spain and study under a master..
don’t forget the M-30 “Del Rio”
Not actually a province or town , just means "by the River", but possibly a reference to Almodovar Del Rio, a castle in the province of Cordoba, region of Andalusia:
image-medieval-castle-almodovar-del-260nw-570309889.jpg

Andalusia contains the town of Malaga which gave its name to the time-honored folk piece "Malaguene", itself a root of the flamenco tradition, being originally a fandango or couples dance, complete with the castanets..
 
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beecee

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So Madeira continues in the time honored Guild tradition...:pride:


I know...Portugal...same thing!
 

Nuuska

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Hello

My first Guild was DE400 - then in spring 1971 I was in Zürich and there in local music store got my first ever Guild acoustic guitar brochure - the narrow folded thing - and there were pictures of beautiful guitars - and I nailed my eyes to Navarre - only to go and get F50R while visiting MN 1975.

So methinks Navarre stands for body size - there are other Navarres besides F50 & F50R
 

The Guilds of Grot

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Right, the province names were associated with a given model, Navarre F50, Valencia F40 , and Aragon F30 , but as far as I know they never used "Granada" or "Cordoba"

I'm going from memory here so take it for what it is but I believe the X-50 was a Granada and the T-50 was the Cordoba. (I don't have my catalog scans here at work to back me up.)
 
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hansmoust

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I don't expect it's anywhere on the label. So it has no meaning? What good is it?

The model names that were used during the '50s were a continuation of an older tradition that goes back to the original Epiphone company. During the 1930s guitars with a flat top were referred to as 'spanish guitars' and at that time model names that were derived from Spanish cities or regions seemed appropriate.

Here's a page from an Epiphone catalog from that particular period that shows two Hawaiian models called the 'Navarre' and the 'Madrid'; there were also two gut string models in the line that were called the 'Alhambra' and the 'Seville'.

EpiNavarre.jpg



Whenever I can, and I regret that it's not always possible, I will use the model name and not the model number; talking about an Aristocrat sounds so much nicer than talking about an M-75.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

Bernie

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Just before I bought my F-30, I did some searching : I found the F-30 was not currently built, but the F-30 Aragon did appear on the Guild website...It's not the same guitar : the Aragon F-30 has an Adirondack top (the F-30 has a sitka top)...
Just like Navarre, Aragon is a Spanish region, and I'd bet that maybe a F50 Navarre would be a higher-end model, and possibly feature an Adirondack top too (??), at least if as Stuball48 said, it is a top of the line Flat top model...
 

hansmoust

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Right, the province names were associated with a given model, Navarre F50, Valencia F40 , and Aragon F30 , but as far as I know they never used "Granada" or "Cordoba"

'Granada' was the original model name for the X-50, which was later changed to 'Cordoba', since Gibson already marketed a banjo with the Granada name.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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adorshki

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I'm going from memory here so take it for what it is but I believe the X-50 was a Granada and the T-50 was the Cordoba. (I don't have my catalog scans here at work to back me up.)

'Granada' was the original model name for the X-50, which was later changed to 'Cordoba', since Gibson already marketed a banjo with the Granada name.
Sincerely,
Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
"Doh!"
There's my electric blind spot again, thank you both!
So methinks Navarre stands for body size - there are other Navarre besides F50 & F50R
Only the original F48 (as far as I know), and yes, it was the same body size, so there's probably something to that.
Still the primary purpose was to give a name to a given model and the models were different sizes, after all.
Names were just more marketable than numbers at the time, witness the vast prevalence of car model names compered to model numbers right through until the '80's.
In fact for the past few years we're starting to see the pendulum swing the other way again.
Like Hans said, he'd rather call an Aristocrat an Aristocrat instead of an M-75.
Just before I bought my F-30, I did some searching : I found the F-30 was not currently built, but the F-30 Aragon did appear on the Guild website...It's not the same guitar : the Aragon F-30 has an Adirondack top (the F-30 has a sitka top)...
That only applies to current F30's, originally it was just a name, it wasn't used to indicate upgraded materials until Tacoma revived it,.
They also revived the "Valencia" name to indicate an F40 with an adi top and the "Bluegrass" models which only became synonymous with "Adi top" in Tacoma.
Just like Navarre, Aragon is a Spanish region, and I'd bet that maybe a F50 Navarre would be a higher-end model, and possibly feature an Adirondack top too (??), at least if as Stuball48 said, it is a top of the line Flat top model...
Question's come up before, and as far as we know Guild never used Adi until the Tacoma era.
In fact the evidence we've seen tends to support just the opposite probability, because it was overharvested for aircraft use in WWII and not readily available again until the early '90's, and I've never seen any Guild literature or credible input from somebody like Hans or a former employee stating they used it, until Tacoma. ('05)
"Navarre" was never re-introduced for the F50 and it may well be that's because it didn't get an Adi top.
The question about "Why not?" has come up before as well, especially regarding the F50's dreadnought counterpart the D55, and all that could be guessed was that for some reason those two got along fine with their traditional AAA spruce tops.
I have absolutely no doubt Tacoma tested Adi tops on F50's and D55's and decided there were good "sound" reasons not to go there, pun intended.
ALL guilds started getting Adi bracing in Tacoma, though, and that right there might also have been enough to improve the F50 and D55.
 
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stevem5000

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WOW....I thought I was asking a simple question but I wasn't expecting this REALLY GREAT discussion...
Many thanks to all...
 
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