The Wood Doesn't Matter ...

PittPastor

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Ahhh....but wasn't that the one that questioned whether an electric guitar's tonewood could affect the guitar's sound?
And didn't you ultimately come to understand that it can and does?

Oh, that's what you concluded from all of that? OK... we can go with that... It's not how I would have summarized it... But then I found out that Billy Corgan claims that white paint makes a different tone than blue paint, and I have nothing left to say....
 

adorshki

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Oh, that's what you concluded from all of that? OK... we can go with that... It's not how I would have summarized it...
Diplomatic reply noted and sincerely respected.
On reflection I do recall some strong suggestions of trolling and intransigent beliefs on your part,in the face of evidence requested and delivered, from some members who weren't fully comprehending your intended meanings within the limitations of this text-only medium.
('scuse me, gotta catch my breath here, OK, now:)
But are you saying you're still not satisfied that an electric guitar's pickups (ad output) are affected by other factors beyond the strings' interference with their magnetic fields?
A simple yes or no is ok, I could resurrect that earlier thread to continue the specific electric guitar issue over there.
Sincerely, no snark intended, I really do respect your diplomacy here.

But then I found out that Billy Corgan claims that white paint makes a different tone than blue paint, and I have nothing left to say....
I love Billy to death but even I don't have the patience to investigate the possible reasons that could be true.
On the other hand, Hendrix had both a white Strat(s) and a white SG.
And wore white at Woodstock, too.
And John Lennon went through his own "White" period.
And let's not forget Elvis' jumpsuit.
One's gotta wonder.
.
.
.
.
.
.
:glee:
 
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F312

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Diplomatic reply noted and sincerely respected.
On reflection I do recall some strong suggestions of trolling and intransigent beliefs on your part,in the face of evidence requested and delivered, from some members who weren't fully comprehending your intended meanings within the limitations of this text-only medium.
('scuse me, gotta catch my breath here, OK, now:)
But are you saying you're still not satisfied that an electric guitar's pickups (ad output) are affected by other factors beyond the strings' interference with their magnetic fields?
A simple yes or no is ok, I could resurrect that earlier thread to continue the specific electric guitar issue over there.
Sincerely, no snark intended, I really do respect your diplomacy here.


I love Billy to death but even I don't have the patience to investigate the possible reasons that could be true.
On the other hand, Hendrix had both a white Strat(s) and a white SG.
And wore white at Woodstock, too.
And John Lennon went through his own "White" period.
And let's not forget Elvis' jumpsuit.
One's gotta wonder.
.
.
.
.
.
.
:glee:

I think we are moving to the grey area.

Ralph
 

PittPastor

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Diplomatic reply noted and sincerely respected.
But are you saying you're still not satisfied that an electric guitar's pickups (ad output) are affected by other factors beyond the strings' interference with their magnetic fields?

Without wanting to trigger a lot of people who have strong beliefs on the subject -- after my discussion with Stuart Day, I do believe that there is a difference in vibrations depending on the wood used. I even believe that it could be measured with electronic instruments that could detect such things.

Do I believe that the human ear is capable of detecting the difference plugged into a house PA system (after possibly going through several pedals to shape and modify the sound)...?

Let me just say that I know my ear could not.

And I certainly do not have the ear capable of detecting the difference between white and blue paint. :numbness:
 

JohnW63

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Back on the topic of Ovation backs and sound.

Bill Kamman , being an engineer, had all sorts of new ways of building things, in the 60s. I believe vibration mapping of various guitars. Taking the backs off of Martins to testing them so they could measure how the tops worked, etc. A lot more testing than guitar builders did back then. What he got with his bowl back and "Lyrachord " material is a back that reflected well and did so with as many ranges of frequency as he could. Many Ovation players like that the notes don't lose something as the go from one end of the neck to the other. It doesn't get dead as the strings bet shorter, I guess. On the down side, people say Ovations can sound sterile. Meaning they don't have any pleasing color to their tone. So, the Ovation back helps amplify and reproduce the frequencies very well, but it doesn't ADD things to the sound. No rosewood "richness", no mahogany " dryness" or "punch" or what ever colorful words we use to differentiate guitar sides and back that are made of wood. I'm, not in that camp. My Ovations do sound different, but not sterile. If I get my lastest one fixed by Mr. Fixit, I'll have more to talk about. In a quick play, I found it was a very loud guitar and did not sound worlds different than my D-55. I'll need a lot more real time with it, but I think it sounds as much like a more traditional guitar than sterile.
 

dreadnut

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Veer..Chocolate sure mattered in this case - we had chocolate Goldendoodles and people lined up to buy them!

Bx6kVCf.jpg


This is the one we kept:

6saNK2t.jpg
 

Rayk

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I was recently reading artical that showed the woods frequency ranges maybe one you read it to . It showed very little difference from the wood types . That got the same response s as posted here lol

I go with the 1% thing posted on page one that's enough for my ear to tell the differences . Lol

But that just made me wonder if there was no difference and back woods matter little how in the heck did they come with tone wood differences in the first place ?
 

adorshki

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Back on the topic of Ovation backs and sound.
Bill Kamman , being an engineer, had all sorts of new ways of building things, in the 60s.
I'd be pretty surprised if you didn't know this, but it's possible others here might not.
Kaman was originally the founder of a helicopter manufacturer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaman_Aircraft

I remember a popular myth from my youth that the back material was originally a sound-proofing material used in the choppers.
Same concept reflecting every frequency possible, just in a the opposite direction.
I call it a myth now, because the last couple of times I tried to confirm this, I was unable to find any corroboration, only a reference to the fact that a Kaman helicopter was the first to use all-composite rotor blades.
Which does explain Kaman's familiarity with and expertise in the uses of composites.

But that just made me wonder if there was no difference and back woods matter little how in the heck did they come with tone wood differences in the first place ?

tribal-drums.jpg

schlitztrommel.jpg


Mass communal hallucinations.
 
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JohnW63

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I'd be pretty surprised if you didn't know this,

I read "The Ovation Book" that is like the Guild book we have hear. In the Ovation Fan Club, since the book was no longer in print, they had copy that got sent to forum members on request and then sent to the next name on the list. One guy made a cool wooden box to put it in , so it wouldn't get messed up in shipping. So, yep. I did know that.

That's also why you would see the folks at New Hartford using non standard clamps and inflated fire hoses to hold things together. They used tools that Charlie though would work better than the traditional stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWB22iSrD98

Check out time spot 9:50. Cleco clamps
And 14:30 for a pneumatic clamping system
And 18:12 for the fire hoses
 

steve488

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Back to the original subject -
Chladni plates have been around for a couple hundred years and visually display resonance patterns of the "plate". Typically a single point stimulus at a single frequency develops a pattern based on the plates dimensions and material. The patterns display slight abnormalities in the symmetry due to variations in the plate (density unless there are other anomalies). It is my understanding that some instrument makers (violin / viola) used or may still use this method to match the characteristics of the top and bottom material, by matching the patterns at various frequencies. A guitar body is of similar design & construction and therefore would be subject to the same characteristic variations due to the wood, therefore by the very fact that there is differences in just the grain structure or the density of the woods, there would have to be a difference in resonant characteristics. If the resonant frequencies are different then the tonal output would have to vary as well.

As a side note - anyone ever heard of a guitar made from yellow pine, white pine or sugar pine? Maybe balsa? Yellow pine is abundant (so far), strong and workable, but it does not have the desired grain characteristics of the typical tonewoods. I am guessing it would have the tonal qualities of a box of sox. So despite their "scientific" experiment I vote there is a difference. Whether the average person can detect it and identify it may be questionable but that is a different experiment. Their methods are flawed and their results are therefore questionable.
 

Rayk

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I'd be pretty surprised if you didn't know this, but it's possible others here might not.
Kaman was originally the founder of a helicopter manufacturer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaman_Aircraft

I remember a popular myth from my youth that the back material was originally a sound-proofing material used in the choppers.
Same concept reflecting every frequency possible, just in a the opposite direction.
I call it a myth now, because the last couple of times I tried to confirm this, I was unable to find any corroboration, only a reference to the fact that a Kaman helicopter was the first to use all-composite rotor blades.
Which does explain Kaman's familiarity with and expertise in the uses of composites.



tribal-drums.jpg

schlitztrommel.jpg


Mass communal hallucinations.

Bwahahahaha ! I just about fell out laughing 😂
 

adorshki

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But that just made me wonder if there was no difference and back woods matter little how in the heck did they come with tone wood differences in the first place ?
tribal-drums.jpg

Bwahahahaha ! I just about fell out laughing ��

Truth to tell, I suspect it was those small xylophone-looking thingies that started it.
In reality all wood will make a tone when struck, but I'm sure with time and experimentation it was discovered that certain woods did it better than others, or had a more pleasing sound, and undoubtedly the choices for the caveman had to come from whatever was available locally.
I suspect the big drums came first, I'm guessing from dead rotted out logs.
Similar principle: as to what was used, though: What was common (or at least "accessible")in a given habitat, that was also suitable to the purpose?
I have a book, As Serious As Your Life by Valerie Wilmer, a study of avant garde jazz of the early '60's to late '70's: think Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra, Tony Williams, Art Ensemble of Chicago.
She had a hypothesis that seems pretty sound to me, that the first instrument was a drum and all others are derived from the concept of initiating resonance in some type of material, even to the extreme of inciting resonances in tubes with nothing more than air pressure.
Which brings up another family of instruments, woodwinds, in which I bet players can differentiate between tonewoods. I bet Chaz could weigh in on that.
But those slit drums have more in common with woodwinds I think than they typical stretched skin drum or xylophone we associate with the term.
Still I think the xylophone may be the source of the concept of "tone woods", woods that ring readily and pleasingly when struck.
And I'll betcha xylophone players can tell the difference between say an ebony and rosewood type.
But the stretched skin drum's membrane was tunable to a greater or lesser degree, laying the groundwork for stringed instruments, essentially multiple-skin drums.
To this day one of only 2 families of instruments capable of playing rhythm and harmony simultaneously (the other being keyboards in the form of the xylophone family)
:tranquillity:


Or....who knows?
Maybe Kubrick was right, maybe the first drum wasn't a log at all.
2001-ape-with-bone1.jpg

But definitely lacking durability.
 
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walrus

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I love Billy to death but even I don't have the patience to investigate the possible reasons that could be true.
On the other hand, Hendrix had both a white Strat(s) and a white SG.
And wore white at Woodstock, too.
And John Lennon went through his own "White" period.
And let's not forget Elvis' jumpsuit.
One's gotta wonder.
.
.
.
.
.
.
:glee:

This could go on forever....

Cream had a White Room.

Billy Idol had a White Wedding.

And so on...

And BTW, I liked him better when Elvis' white jumpsuit actually fit him!

walrus
 

Christopher Cozad

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...Truth to tell, I suspect it was those small xylophone-looking thingies that started it.
In reality all wood will make a tone when struck, but I'm sure with time and experimentation it was discovered that certain woods did it better than others, or had a more pleasing sound...
I did some research on the topic of Tonewoods a few years back ;~} that may be of interest to some here:

Tonewoods

Related to that topic is a short article titled Wood is Wood...Until it is More. Here I take a quick look at the Pan flute and the Marimba (a close cousin of the xylophone). Both instruments are featured in video links demonstrating their sound. In addition to Rosewood, the Marimba often uses Paduak (that orange stripe of wood that runs through the middle of many of our older Guild laminated necks) for it's soundbars.
 
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