The Wood Doesn't Matter ...

Christopher Cozad

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...That's what I mean when by "coloring": the way a given body wood changes the waveform(s) it's reflecting, it's what allows us to distinguish maple from mahogany...

Here's a photo from LTG member Jim, and referenced in this thread, For Sale, by me, 1987 Guild JF30-12 Black

This speaks to what you saying. Notice how the black tint colors the maple:

JF-30-12-black.jpg


(Sorry, I couldn't resist...and all the best to Jim as he sells his 12 string)
 

adorshki

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she said one thing that stuck with me. She thought Ovations were well build and sounded good, until you played them loud enough to hear the back. So, an Ovation has a back shape SPECIFICALLY designed to reflect the sound loudly and evenly. Since it's not wood, it doesn't really color the sound, but it DOES contribute to the sound, or Kathy wouldn't be able to hear it's contribution.
Interesting proposition.
At first I wanted to say I think the back does "color" the sound, just not the same way as wood.
It's what allows her to "hear" its presence at a certain amplitude.
But I was also just trying to clarify what I mean by the term.
You got me thinking, though.
If the back reflects in a way that doesn't actually change the waveform (ie, change relative amplitudes between frequencies and add little fuzzy distortion edges like you could see on an oscilloscope), then sure, it doesn't color the sound.
So how can she tell when it affects the sound?
Something else going on, like phase interference, perhaps?
Or top getting overdriven to the point of inefficient resonance, kinda like "valve float" when an engine's over-revving (engine's not able to perform the complete intake/compression/exhaust cycle because valves aren't opening and closing completely) ?
 

adorshki

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This speaks to what you saying. Notice how the black tint colors the maple:

JF-30-12-black.jpg


(Sorry, I couldn't resist...and all the best to Jim as he sells his 12 string)

Ahhhh....but you missed the thread about how finish color affects tone.
Who was it?, Oh yes, the Smashing Pumpkins guy, Billy Corgan, insists white guitars sound the best.
Eggshell, to be precise.
So the yolk's on you.
 

Nuuska

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Hello

This thread starts reminding a discussion with one of my ex-customer - some 30 years ago.
There was first this silly ( in my opinion ) discussion about different 9V battery brands affecting the sound of floor pedals - that was nothing compared to when it expanded to "right place to buy THIS chocolate" - and worst of all - he was dead serious about it.

These very important discussions took place while travelling to other towns for next gig.Coming home topics were different - never batteries or chocolate quality on this or that service station. . .

Methinks he's just plain nuts.
 

Christopher Cozad

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Ahhhh....but you missed the thread about how finish color affects tone.
Who was it?, Oh yes, the Smashing Pumpkins guy, Billy Corgan, insists white guitars sound the best.
Eggshell, to be precise.
So the yolk's on you.
Al(bumin),

You're right in turning up the heat on that post...I let it slide right past me. My brain is totally fried and I have egg all over my face. It boils me when people make such unfounded statements. I guess it could be okay, so long as they are whipping up original nonsense, and not poaching off the ridiculousness of others...

Regarding how Finnish color affects tone, I need to hear more from Nuuska.
 

adorshki

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Al(bumin),

You're right in turning up the heat on that post...I let it slide right past me. My brain is totally fried and I have egg all over my face. It boils me when people make such unfounded statements. I guess it could be okay, so long as they are whipping up original nonsense, and not poaching off the ridiculousness of others...
Ok, omelettecha off.

Regarding how Finnish color affects tone, I need to hear more from Nuuska.
Granted it's hearsay, but I've been told they don't care what color their wood is as long as it's a hard wood.
 

Nuuska

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. . . Regarding how Finnish color affects tone, I need to hear more from Nuuska.


Veeeery funny - as I might have told before - I was at Leo's house playing his guitars - sounding me. He was at my workplace at Berns Music Playing Steinberger Bass through Gallien-Krueger 2x50W transistor amp into two Marshall 4x12 cabinets - sounding him. My workmate came to me saying : "Can ya hear that? Sounds just like Leo"

If it is of any importance, the bass was BLACK - made of composite fbers of the time. . .


as of Finnish colours - we have some quite exquisite Northern Hues that make all difference in world to how ANY gitfiddle sounds regardless of three dozens floorboxes and cazillions overlapping tracks in recording. Even if they have original Urei LA-4 compressor to squeeze it to oblivion. . .
 

Nuuska

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. . .Granted it's hearsay, but I've been told they don't care what color their wood is as long as it's a hard wood.


NO NO NO

RED for house walls - GREY for shacks, saunas, docks, boats etc!

That was for outdoors - inside we have got something else
 

fronobulax

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Interesting proposition.
At first I wanted to say I think the back does "color" the sound, just not the same way as wood.
It's what allows her to "hear" its presence at a certain amplitude.
But I was also just trying to clarify what I mean by the term.
You got me thinking, though.
If the back reflects in a way that doesn't actually change the waveform (ie, change relative amplitudes between frequencies and add little fuzzy distortion edges like you could see on an oscilloscope), then sure, it doesn't color the sound.
So how can she tell when it affects the sound?
Something else going on, like phase interference, perhaps?
Or top getting overdriven to the point of inefficient resonance, kinda like "valve float" when an engine's over-revving (engine's not able to perform the complete intake/compression/exhaust cycle because valves aren't opening and closing completely) ?

I really hate to post something that is devoid of clever word play but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Maybe this will be someone else's straight line?

There are any number of 'systems' that have a variable response based on some other factor. I used to remember some of the names and could drop the engineering and mathematical buzzwords. So I figured the Ovation back was a system that amplified the "input". If the input amplitude was below a certain threshold then the input was amplified without distortion, i.e. the output is identical to the input except for amplitude. But if the input amplitude is high enough then the output is both louder and distorted and hence the distortion is what was lets one "hear the back". So hearing an Ovation's back makes sense to me although I don't think we are collectively going to be able explain why (as opposed to speculate why). :)
 

PittPastor

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Seems a lot like a thread I started -- and drew so much fire for it guys wanted to ban me as a troll.

I'll stick with what my Luthier said: "Pastor, folks in your church are less religious about your God than guitar players are about their tone..."

Faith. Belief. Whatever. Guys swear they can hear a difference. I personally can't. But I know a lot of people have better ears than mine.

I also know K9 rescue teams where a German Shepherd found someone buried under so many layers of rock and dirt that scientists would say there was no way a dog could scent them. And yet the dog triggered, and when they dug off the rubble they found the guy alive, but unconscious.

At the end of the day, the player has to like the way his guitar sounds. For whatever reason.

And scientists will keep trying to prove or disprove it, because that's what science does.
 

adorshki

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Seems a lot like a thread I started -- and drew so much fire for it guys wanted to ban me as a troll.
Ahhh....but wasn't that the one that questioned whether an electric guitar's tonewood could affect the guitar's sound?
And didn't you ultimately come to understand that it can and does?
:friendly_wink:
In this case the question's a bit different but no less dangerous.
:glee:
 

dreadnut

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Seems to me we need a new buzz word; here ya go: backlitude (combination of back and amplitude.)
 

steve488

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Being a science trained type there seems to be some questions about how valid this "experiment" really is. It seems to be fairly subjective (it sounds good) in its evaluation rather than objective (I measured specific overtones and harmonics of 440 Hz). To start with there is nothing that indicates whether there was any preliminary evaluation to ensure the selected guitars were in fact representative of the collective "whole" (i.e., does the hog body model tested seem to share similar traits to other similar size/shape hog guitars). Consider it one took a single part off an assembly line and had 31 people measure it. My data set would provide me more information about the measurement process than it would about the parts on the assembly line.

I am thinking that in order to perform such an experiment properly, it would require a substantial number of guitars of each build to collectively define the characteristics for each "type". Measurements would have to be done with a common setup for all (semi anechoic chamber, precision wide band microphones and high bandwith analyzers) and most likely either a single player (not ideal) or a mechanically induced "player". Even at that, the number of variables would be substantial. Even to try to build a computer model to assess the vibration characteristics would be a massive undertaking to consider all the variables. All in all, it would take lots of time, lots of equipment and lots of dollars and still not get beyond the "I like the sound of that one better"!
 

dreadnut

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It seems to me it would be mighty difficult to assign any sound attributes solely to the back material, as each guitar is a combination of its parts.
 

Nuuska

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. . .Granted it's hearsay, but I've been told they don't care what color their wood is as long as it's a hard wood.


Veer time - now that I finally understand above sentence . . .


A man returns from Africa - later he discovers he has some exotic decease, whereas his pinkwood has changed colour - it is green - he goes to see a doctor, who says: "It has to be chopped off."
Horrified by thought he seeks help from second doctor - now the wood has turned orange - African Padauk - verdict : "It has to be chopped off."
And so it goes week after week - new colours & new doctors - but same doomsday verdict : "It has to be chopped off."
Finally he meets an african healer and asks him about his now almost black chunk of ebony : "Please tell me there's no need to chop it off!"

Healer laughs : "Do not worry - no need to chop it off - in another week it will fall off all by itself."


Let's see now . . .
 
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