Nearly bought a D25 arched...it was so close, cash was in hand too

Westerly Wood

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Here is the guitar: https://tucson.craigslist.org/msg/d/tucson-1976-guild-d25/6794326781.html

The tone blew be away. I am so used to the Br (D25 flatback), but the arched D25s are just much more powerful. And not as brash as I thought they would be. It was a great realization.

However, the B/E strings buzzed badly at even the 5th fret, the neck angle looked ok but very little saddle left. If I had done the truss adj, it would have only made the action worse, and I am just not up for a project right now. The Br is fine.

But wow, put me in the camp of digging D25 archies. Dude said he would tinker with it at the nut...I told him to text me, I might just have to buy it after all and fix down the road. Or he will sell it and I wished him well.

So close :) Can someone tell me what kind of bridge pins he has? they were metal.
 
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Westerly Wood

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Cool grab it ! ��

we'll see :) but the experience proved i now have a 70s westerly D25 arched on my radar. low radar but still, they are great dreads.
 

Stuball48

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Self discipline is not something we hold against each other when buying another Guild is the purchase. Let us know when you get that archback.
 

Westerly Wood

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Self discipline is not something we hold against each other when buying another Guild is the purchase. Let us know when you get that archback.

you all will be the first to know :)
 

adorshki

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The tone blew be away. I am so used to the Br (D25 flatback), but the arched D25s are just much more powerful. And not as brash as I thought they would be. It was a great realization.
Interesting.
As we've discussed before, I got a suspicion it's more about the spruce top than it is the arch, even though the arch is supposed to "do that".
Based on the similarity between my D25 and D40, now, for volume.
And maybe it has something to do with the metal pins, if they are metal?
That'd be adding a nice bit of mass to the bridge, in effect.

However, the B/E strings buzzed badly at even the 5th fret, the neck angle looked ok but very little saddle left.
Man if neck alignment was good then I'm guessing somebody just wanted it have that super low action like we see sometimes. A new saddle's cheap.

But wow, put me in the camp of digging D25 archies. Dude said he would tinker with it at the nut
hmmmm....one would want to make the slots shallower, I'd think. Means filling in with the old superglue/baking soda mixture.
Or maybe shimming the nut?
Not sure that's the ideal remedy, better to start at the saddle end and adjust for height at the 12th before adjusting nut slot depth.
Besides, which, if it's buzzing even at the 5th fret it's more likely the saddle anyway.
Too-deep nut slots are more likely to result in muting out.
So close :) Can someone tell me what kind of bridge pins he has? they were metal.
???
Don't look like metal in the pics.
Don't recall hearing about metal bridge pins for Guilds, but maybe a vague recollection of somebody using 'em in conjunction with a brass nut.
It occurs to me that their use may have required some reaming of the pin holes to accept 'em, if they didn't have the same taper as the originals.
Just food for thought.
Trust your instincts.
:friendly_wink:
Edit:
One other thought: There's a version of the Bridge Doctor that uses a metal bridge pin, maybe he got extras for aesthetics, so there wouldn't be just the one.
Was anything said about a BD; did you have a chance to look inside it?
Might explain the enhanced tone, too, they're reported to do that in some cases.
 
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Westerly Wood

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Don't look like metal in the pics.
Don't recall hearing about metal bridge pins for Guilds, but maybe a vague recollection of somebody using 'em in conjunction with a brass nut.
It occurs to me that their use may have required some reaming of the pin holes to accept 'em, if they didn't have the same taper as the originals.
just food for thought.
Trust your instincts.
:friendly_wink:

Al, definitely not factory bridge pins. It looked to me like you screw the pins in and out when changing strings. the pics really dont show it well. I also like the grover tuners he put on at some point, nice touch. factory tuners on D25s are pretty lame, imho. does they change the tone? probably. the dread just sounded really big. I have played a D25 before and it was a bit brash sounding. I did not like it. this was a different animal.

good call re the saddle. maybe that is all it would need.
 

adorshki

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Al, definitely not factory bridge pins. It looked to me like you screw the pins in and out when changing strings. the pics really dont show it well. I also like the grover tuners he put on at some point, nice touch. factory tuners on D25s are pretty lame, imho. does they change the tone? probably. the dread just sounded really big. I have played a D25 before and it was a bit brash sounding. I did not like it. this was a different animal.

good call re the saddle. maybe that is all it would need.

As I often do, I was editing after the initial post.
See my note about a possible Bridge Doctor install. Screw-in/screw-out sounds an awful lot like their method.
Lemme see if I can find their site for confirmation, watch this space.
EDIT:
A-yup, confirmed here:
https://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Tools_for_Bridges/JLD_Bridge_Doctor.html
Brass pin mount: The pin-mounted version of the JLD Bridge Doctor attaches beneath the bridge using a threaded brass bridge pin. The strings mount horizontally through the tops of the matching brass bridge pins (included).
Now if it is a Bridge Doctor installation that's not necessarily a deal killer to me, they've got their fans around here, but it would call the seller's credibility into question if they knew it was there but said nothing.
Also, getting back to tone, is that actually a 'hog top?
Very hard to tell from the one blurry pic, but there was one member (SpiderMan) here who had a '76 "M" with a 'hog top, and that's supposed to be way outside the build date range for all-hog archbacks besides being mislabeled for the time, but there is at least one known example.
If it is a 'hog top, I'd look at this as being like an old semi-muscle car that's had some work done to the original motor during a rebuild, to get just a little more oomph, without going over the top.
(So to speak, LOL!)
 
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Westerly Wood

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As I often do, I was editing after the initial post.
See my note about a possible Bridge Doctor install. Screw-in/screw-out sounds an awful lot like their method.
Lemme see if I can find their site for confirmation, watch this space.

ok, again, if he texts me to update on progress, i will most likely just drive out to buy it and solve the issues later on, you all know i can wait for years so long as i can play an old Guild dread decent enuff to do any kind of "fixes' :). the tone was that good. at the same time, i am more patient in general over past few years so not like really needing to buy this old D25. but it had the MOJO. it was quite humorous, as i told him about the issues i was finding and he was trying to solve them, i kept taking the guitar back out of his hands and sit and keep playing it. I am sure he thought i was crazy. but we all know that is probably true.
 

Westerly Wood

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I guess you saw it up close, but on that pic looking down the neck, the saddle doesn't look all that bad.... :positive:

yeah, there was like hardly any room left, maybe a smidge.
 

Westerly Wood

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Make sure you see my edit in post 8, I'm pretty sure it does have the Bridge Doctor, but that ain't necessarily a bad thing.
Sounds like this could be one of those guitars it helped.

yes, i think i did as i birds-eyed the neck, it was spot on to the bridge. just a lot of neck relief already, so more would just raise the action, which I think is a sign of a neck reset needed.
 

adorshki

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yes, i think i did as i birds-eyed the neck, it was spot on to the bridge. just a lot of neck relief already, so more would just raise the action, which I think is a sign of a neck reset needed.

NO, relief has nothing to do with alignment:
Relief is how much "dip" or bow is allowed in the neck by the truss.
Tightening the truss flattens the neck.
Ideally you want just enough relief to prevent buzzing depending on how hard you strum/pick.
But it has nothing to do with alignment or neck angle because one end of the truss is buried in the heel, it can't affect the actual neck angle.
It only affects the bow of the fretboard between the nut and the 12th fret
Neck angle goes bad at the heel and tugs the truss rod's area of action along with it.
The real way to check alignment:
With the neck adjusted for flat and the strings at tension, lay a flat-edge next to the D string, to the bridge.
Ideal alignment is when the flat edge lines up perfectly with the top of the bridge if it falls low (closer to the top), then the neck is "collapsing".
More than maybe a 32nd is worrisome.
This also assumes the bridge hasn't been shaved since that's the common method to forestall a reset, but reducing bridge height impacts tone negatively in most cases.
Ideally combined height of bridge and saddle at crown should be 1/2" +/- maybe 1/16; less than that's also "worrisome".
But confirm good height at bridge/saddle before checking alignment.
If alignment's good and there's already a lot of relief and it still buzzes, then yes all it needs is a taller saddle.
But going over this also makes me realize you might want to confirm that the truss rod's actually still functional, too.
 

dreadnut

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Mine is an arched back and spruce top and it's a tone monster. Really belts out the bass end too. Still my main guitar squeeze after 43 years.

My theory is that the arched back, having no internal braces, is acting sort of parabolically.
 

Westerly Wood

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NO, relief has nothing to do with alignment:
Relief is how much "dip" or bow is allowed in the neck by the truss.
Tightening the truss flattens the neck.
Ideally you want just enough relief to prevent buzzing depending on how hard you strum/pick.
But it has nothing to do with alignment or neck angle because one end of the truss is buried in the heel, it can't affect the actual neck angle.
It only affects the bow of the fretboard between the nut and the 12th fret
Neck angle goes bad at the heel and tugs the truss rod's area of action along with it.
The real way to check alignment:
With the neck adjusted for flat and the strings at tension, lay a flat-edge next to the D string, to the bridge.
Ideal alignment is when the flat edge lines up perfectly with the top of the bridge if it falls low (closer to the top), then the neck is "collapsing".
More than maybe a 32nd is worrisome.
This also assumes the bridge hasn't been shaved since that's the common method to forestall a reset, but reducing bridge height impacts tone negatively in most cases.
Ideally combined height of bridge and saddle at crown should be 1/2" +/- maybe 1/16; less than that's also "worrisome".
But confirm good height at bridge/saddle before checking alignment.
If alignment's good and there's already a lot of relief and it still buzzes, then yes all it needs is a taller saddle.
But going over this also makes me realize you might want to confirm that the truss rod's actually still functional, too.

thanks Al!
he texted me last night while i was at dinner with the family, having left his house like 30 mins prior, it was getting late for the kiddos for sure, he says he finally got the truss to adjust and he took away the buzz. i asked how the action was, he replied, "not too bad", which I think we can all agree is a fairly "loose" description :). so i figure this D25 will most likely need a neck reset. i just did not want to take on that burden right now. appreciate the input!

to Dread's point, yes, it was just a great learning for me. D25 archies are just monsters. I plan to acquire one one day.
 
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D30Man

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Self discipline is not something we hold against each other when buying another Guild is the purchase. Let us know when you get that archback.

Amen!!!
WW - I hope he can tinker with it to your satisfaction and you are able to throw down on it my good man.. if it is meant to be it is meant to be. If not you are now in the know on the beauty of the D25 archbacks.
 

D30Man

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thanks Al!
he texted me last night while i was at dinner with the family, having left his house like 30 mins prior, it was getting late for the kiddos for sure, he says he finally got the truss to adjust and he took away the buzz. i asked how the action was, he replied, "not too bad", which I think we can all agree is a fairly "loose" description :). so i figure this D25 will most likely need a neck reset. i just did not want to take on that burden right now. appreciate the input!

to Dread's point, yes, it was just a great learning for me. D25 archies are just monsters. I plan to acquire one one day.

Late to the party as always!!! Sounds like you made the right choice!!!
 

bobouz

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A couple of thoughts:

> On '70s Guilds, the string pin holes sit very close to the saddle. This means that even with a low saddle, you get a good break angle on the strings as they enter the pin holes.

> Also on '70s Guilds, I've noticed a significant amount of variation in bridge height from one guitar to the next. Some are high enough that shaving them down to gain a bit of saddle height would be a very viable option.

In the photo sighting down the neck towards the bridge, it does appear as if there is a serviceable amount of saddle showing, and the bridge itself looks like one of the taller ones, so shaving could be considered down the road if need be.

Overall, I'm guessing some set-up work would dial this baby in quite nicely for years to come, without a neck reset. And if it's got a tone that has imprinted itself in your memory banks, you can't assume you'll find it in the next one, or the one after that.

Give it another test drive - This may be the one (enabler alert of course, but quite possibly true!).
 

Westerly Wood

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A couple of thoughts:

> On '70s Guilds, the string pin holes sit very close to the saddle. This means that even with a low saddle, you get a good break angle on the strings as they enter the pin holes.

> Also on '70s Guilds, I've noticed a significant amount of variation in bridge height from one guitar to the next. Some are high enough that shaving them down to gain a bit of saddle height would be a very viable option.

In the photo sighting down the neck towards the bridge, it does appear as if there is a serviceable amount of saddle showing, and the bridge itself looks like one of the taller ones, so shaving could be considered down the road if need be.

Overall, I'm guessing some set-up work would dial this baby in quite nicely for years to come, without a neck reset. And if it's got a tone that has imprinted itself in your memory banks, you can't assume you'll find it in the next one, or the one after that.

Give it another test drive - This may be the one (enabler alert of course, but quite possibly true!).

I will text him sunday, give it one more shot. unless he sold it already. they come up in tucson locally 2-3 times a year, so i can wait it out, but this one was a good one!
 
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