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Thread: Edumacate Me Please

  1. #1
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    Edumacate Me Please

    I've owned quite a few Guilds (both 6 and 12 string) that have had cracks between the neck and the soundhole. I've always blamed pickguard shrinkage for those on the treble side (may or may not be correct) but could never dream up a reason/excuse for those on the bass side. Anybody have any insight into what might cause that??? Also, I haven't seen it on Gibson or Martin guitars I've owned but admittedly I've owned far more Guild than any other manufacturer. Any thoughts/ideas/facts?????
    '75 D 40 C
    '18 D 40T Custom
    '14 D 55
    '98 D 60
    '64 D 50 Braz. RW
    '86 D 66
    '81 D 70
    '94 DV 72
    '94 DV 73
    '00 F30R
    '10 F 40 GSR Cocobolo
    '12 F 47 GSR KC
    '08 F 50R
    '09 F 50
    '74 D 55-12
    '07 F 412 X 2
    '74 F 512
    '72 F-612
    '83 G 45
    '87 GF 50R
    '95 JF 100 NAT CRV
    '99 Finesse
    '13&'14 Orpheum Jumbo
    '97 45th Anniv. #45
    '03 D 55 50th Anniv. #23
    '13 F 30 60th Anniv. #17
    '64 S 50
    '57 X 175
    '70's M 75 CS
    '69 Studio 402
    '98 SF 2
    '81 SF 4
    '67 SF 5
    '67 SF 12
    Blues 90X2

  2. #2
    Senior Member gjmalcyon's Avatar
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    If the crack is on both sides of the neck extending to the sound hole, and that section of the top has also moved toward the bridge, then that is probably a shifted neck block. Often caused by leaving a hide-glue assembled guitar in a hot car.

    Here's a particularly bad example from Frets.com.
    Last edited by gjmalcyon; 01-16-2019 at 09:42 PM.
    '69 Yamaha FG-110 (folks)
    '08 DV-6 (8th Street)
    '72 F-212XL (ex-idealassets - a nephew's)
    '83 D-35 (ex-Walking Man, Qvart) FOR SALE
    '93 JF4-12 (ex-grumpyguybill)
    '07 F-47R (ex-mikemo6string)
    '74 G-37 (ex-Gardman, Neal) FOR SALE
    '94 D-6 FOR SALE
    '61 F-40B (ex-Walking Man)
    GAD F-130R (ex-Killdeer43, Jeffcoop,) FOR SALE
    GAD-30 (ex-Killdeer43, Geoguy - with a different nephew)
    GAD D125-12 (ex-BoneDigger) FOR SALE
    NS SFIV-ST (ex-BoneDigger)
    '99 DeArmond M-75
    '13 Orpheum 14-Fret RW Dreadnought

  3. #3
    I have five Guild Flattops, one for over 50 years, two for over 40, plus have had a few others over the years. Never had this problem.
    Brad
    F212: 1964 ,AA: 1975 ,Mark V:1975 ,F50:1976, D-55,1979; X170:1986, F-40:2007, F512:2010, Godin ACS:1999, Giannini 7-string classical, Epi Korean Howard Roberts Custom:1995, Pawless Mesquite Special, 2012. My trio's site: http://bradbilljanet.blogspot.com/

  4. #4
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    I had a few Guild acoustics for many years and I never had a crack in the wood but did get finish cracks between the pickguard and neck on a '80 D40CE.
    M

  5. #5
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    As gjmalcyon suggests, suspect you've been seeing the effects of the neck block shifting forward as the neck is pulled towards eth bridge by string tension.
    Our member Christopher Coad explains thusly, here:
    "I have no idea when it occurred, but the dreaded neck block shift had struck this guitar at some point in recent history, splitting the top along one edge of the fingerboard extension from the neck block to the edge of the soundhole. It wasn't grotesque, but it was noticeable, and it identified a larger underlying problem. A neck block should never shift."
    AND
    " These guitars were constructed without using a fingerboard patch, a thin horizontal strip applied to the backside of the soundboard just behind the transverse brace and extending across the width of the upper bout. Instead, a small block was added at 90° to the neck block, sized to be the width of the fingerboard extension and glued to the underside of the soundboard. While this extra buttressing would counteract the tendency of the fingerboard extension to depress the soundboard, should the neck block ever shift forward it would take that section of the soundboard along with it.
    As shown in that article:

    BTW I suspect you'll enjoy reading the whole article, here for those that may not be able to use the link I embedded above:
    https://www.cozadguitars.com/article...-overhaul.html

    Last edited by adorshki; 01-16-2019 at 10:02 PM.
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

  6. #6
    Senior Member davismanLV's Avatar
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    As has been said above, failure of the neck block to support the intense pull of the strings towards the bridge. When it fails then everything starts to shift towards the bridge causing those types of cracks. It's quite a difficult thing to correct, and more expensive than just normal soundboard cracks. Again, as mentioned above, this is from the guitar being subjected to extreme heat or sunlight and the glues holding the neck block let go, and then the collapse begins.
    Tom in Vegas

    Use the good china. Life itself is the special occasion.

    Guild D65s, 1994
    Guild DV72, 1994
    Taylor GC8, 2011
    Breedlove Oregon Concert Rogue 4/12/2016 (The BLUE one)
    Breedlove Myrtlewood Concerto E 07/12/17
    Washburn EA-20 "Festival Series", 1995

  7. #7
    I'll go along with the neck block theory.

    But regarding neck block glue failure, it's interesting that some luthiers avoid Guild neck resets because (they say) the glue is too good.

    Go figure.

  8. #8
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein View Post
    I'll go along with the neck block theory.

    But regarding neck block glue failure, it's interesting that some luthiers avoid Guild neck resets because (they say) the glue is too good.

    Go figure.
    Funny you should mention that, I was just reviewing Mr. Cozad's article on re-setting the neck of an F412 and he addresses that issue very specifically, too.
    In past we've seen a number of contributing factors mentioned that support that perception, even though they're most likely the exceptions rather than the rule.
    Allow me to quote from here:
    https://www.cozadguitars.com/article...-overhaul.html
    "Something of an urban legend has developed over the decades regarding a notion that Guild dovetailed guitar necks are somehow generally more difficult to remove than other manufacturer’s dovetailed necks. This has simply not been my experience with these guitars, now spanning more than 4 decades...."
    AND
    "When properly softened, it is just not that big of a deal to remove the neck. Short of general inexperience, I believe the primary reason for difficulty encountered during dovetail neck removal on Guild guitars may have more to do with improper placement of the steam hole(s) and/or insufficient application of steam/heat than the amount (or even type) of glue used."
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

  9. #9
    Super Moderator chazmo's Avatar
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    Just don't confuse yourselves, guys. There are two different things being talked about above. The neck block is set into the guitar's body whereas the neck itself is joined to the neck block later in the assembly process. That neck block shifting slightly over time (due to levered tension on it by the neck) is what's being blamed for the kind of damage shown above that Richard was asking about.
    Guilds:
    1967 MK-VI Artist Special (Hoboken - Jacobs restoration 2018) - "The Mark"
    12ers:
    1994 JF-30-12Bld (Westerly),
    2006 F-512 (Tacoma),
    2010 F-212XL STD (New Hartford) - "Connie"
    2014 Orpheum 12 OOO SHRW (New Hartford)

    Other 12ers:
    1970 Martin D-12-20
    1980 Ibanez AW-75 (Series I)
    1984 Taylor 655

  10. #10
    My F-212 (which Al referred to, above), had suffered a crack / split in the soundboard along the "bass" side of the fingerboard extension. The treble side remained intact. Curiosity got the better of me and I had (eventually) removed the soundboard to have a look inside. The split was barely visible along the inside of the soundboard, but was glaringly obvious on the face of the soundboard, running all the way from the binding into the sound hole. All the glue joints were intact. While there is a remote possibility that this instrument suffered some kind of sudden heat stroke that went unnoticed by me (where the glue softened enough for wood to "let go"), I believe the crack is the result of either impact damage (such as a sudden blow to one side that torqued the neck, perhaps while in the case - have you ever witnessed baggage handlers with guitar cases?) or maybe due to the neck block swelling from humidity and taking that portion of the soundboard with it.


    In my experience splits such as these always occur along the fingerboard extension (the section of the fingerboard that extends over, and is glued onto, the soundboard). Of particular note is the fact that the Guild neck block is significantly wider (3-3/4") than the fingerboard (2-3/8"). The Spruce soundboard is securely glued to and supported by a block of Mahogany beneath it, while a narrow strip of dense hardwood is glued to the soundboard. The grain direction of the fingerboard and soundboard run the same way (lengthwise down the guitar) with the neck block rotated 90°. The hardwood fingerboard and the softwood soundboard do *not* expand and contract at the same rate, and neck block swells and contracts at a right angle to those two. Subject the guitar to extreme temperature and RH shifts, add 200 pounds of pressure/tension by stringing it up, drop it a time or two (not by me) and, well...



    - Christopher

    1975 F-212 NT (overhaul started in 2016)
    1975 F-212 NT
    1976 F-50R NT
    1976 F-512 NT (Overhauled in 2010)
    1980 F-412 NT (Overhauled in 2014)
    1988 (G)F-60R NT

    Diagnosed in childhood with a CLWEA genetic predisposition
    CLWEA is an acronym for Can't Leave Well Enough Alone

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