Keep Finish From Peeling During Show

iamarobotman

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Hello, my 1965 Starfire IV has some serious player mojo and wear. The paint on the back is missing in some places and I'm trying to keep it from peeling more. I also notice it gets very cloudy white from sweat and starts to wrinkle the paint finish more when playing. This is front and back.

I'm trying to keep it from peeling further. Are there any methods to keep this from happening or preserving it? Thanks!
 

adorshki

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Hello, my 1965 Starfire IV has some serious player mojo and wear. The paint on the back is missing in some places and I'm trying to keep it from peeling more. I also notice it gets very cloudy white from sweat and starts to wrinkle the paint finish more when playing. This is front and back.

I'm trying to keep it from peeling further. Are there any methods to keep this from happening or preserving it? Thanks!

The clouding is a result of the NCL being softened up by your sweat, and something's already interfered with its bond to the wood if it's wrinkling.
Suspect skin oils in the sweat have already permeated the wood allowing the NCL to wrinkle.
Other possibility is that it's already a re-fin and the wood wasn't adequately prepped for the re-spray, so the NCL was never really bonded well to the wood..
I can't recall hearing about a true "fix" for this other than a re-fin or an overspray of fresh NCL.
Even then, NCL by it's nature is always going to be susceptible to sweat damage so the problem will recur unless further preventive measures are used.
Several suggestions were offered in your other thread where you mentioned it, but I suspect you got busy gigging and never got a chance to see those replies:

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?196488-Can-your-skin-harm&p=1805587#post1805587
 

davismanLV

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Everyone thinks it a sacrilege to refinish a guitar but it's not. Sounds like you already have problems with the finish. Once that's gone and you're sweating and playing...... either keep going, OR decide you want it refinished and then you have to worry with the same thing because lacquer is susceptible to sweat and time and wear......
 

fronobulax

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Everyone thinks it a sacrilege to refinish a guitar but it's not.

Last time I checked it was undeniably true that refinishing a brass instrument changed the sound/tone. Same is true for a wooden instrument. Similarly, most performers are more concerned with the sound/tone of their particular instrument than any other factor. So refinishing an instrument creates a risk that the refinishing will destroy the the most important characteristic of that particular instrument. So if you are at all risk adverse or set in your ways Don't Refinish is the best advice.

That said, not all refinishing jobs are equal and not all players are sensitive to subtle variations in their instruments so we are definitely in the realm of "it makes a difference but who will notice?". On my cynical days I wonder if the same folks who blew out their ears playing (or listening to) loud electric music decades ago really have enough hearing to discern the subtle differences in the high end between two different guitars.
 

walrus

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Hello, my 1965 Starfire IV has some serious player mojo and wear. The paint on the back is missing in some places and I'm trying to keep it from peeling more. I also notice it gets very cloudy white from sweat and starts to wrinkle the paint finish more when playing. This is front and back.

This is what you are supposed to do! No bu11$h1t Fender-like "relic'ing" - honest play wear!

"Made to be Played"!

Love to see some photos, I'm guessing it looks great as it is!

walrus
 

gjmalcyon

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Hello, my 1965 Starfire IV has some serious player mojo and wear. The paint on the back is missing in some places <snip>

When I'm catching a band and the guitarist is playing an instrument that looks like yours as you describe it, I anticipate really good sounds are going to start happening. The more lived-with-and-loved the guitar looks, the better the listening has been.
 

chazmo

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Hey, robot.. I wouldn't worry about finish appearance on your old Starfire unless it's affecting playability or you simply don't like the wear/mojo. I *would* worry about areas that the finish is worn off where bare wood is exposed, though, if that's the case... The wood does need to be protected, especially for a gigging guitar.
 

adorshki

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Hey, robot.. I wouldn't worry about finish appearance on your old Starfire unless it's affecting playability or you simply don't like the wear/mojo. I *would* worry about areas that the finish is worn off where bare wood is exposed, though, if that's the case... The wood does need to be protected, especially for a gigging guitar.

I think that's a lot bigger concern for solid wood acoustics, especially tops, where contaminants can adversely affect tone.
Starfires, being laminated top electrics, are at least relatively "safe" from that issue.
Granted I wouldn't want to subject any guitar wood to a lot moisture for an extended period, due to the potential for warping, even with laminations.
My biggest concern is that if the finish is wrinkling, that means an intact "patch" of softened lacquer is able to easily slide over the wood surface, causing the wrinkles, and indicating it has virtually no bond to the top there.
Why no bond?
Probably already contaminated, best guess is with skin oils.
Those can form a moisture barrier of their own, it is, after all, why the lacquer's not bonding anymore.
So assuming it is skin oil contamination, the wood's actually already somewhat "sealed" against moisture, which makes the finish problem an aesthetic issue only.**
Robotman, try this:
Does a tiny drop of water bead up on the bare wood?
That'll tell you if it's contaminated by oils.
Even then , if you do want to refinish it, there are ways of leaching 'em out of the wood to ensure a refinish will "stick".
In the meantime, I'm about 95% confident it's just an aesthetic problem that can be remedied.

**Allowing for Frono's valid observation that a refin can affect tone, although it could be for the better, and is a far bigger issue with a solid top acoustic than a laminated top electric.
 
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iamarobotman

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Hey, robot.. I wouldn't worry about finish appearance on your old Starfire unless it's affecting playability or you simply don't like the wear/mojo. I *would* worry about areas that the finish is worn off where bare wood is exposed, though, if that's the case... The wood does need to be protected, especially for a gigging guitar.

This is exactly what's going on. There's mahogany wood exposed on the back. I honestly don't care what the guitar looks like, but I gig with it regularly and sweat when I play a full set like any rock and roll dude should. I'm just trying to protect my investment and guitar is all. "Made to Be Played" exactly, but I'm trying to find the best way to preserve the back from peeling further, not keep it in a house to be played sparingly.

As you can see, bare spots and the wrinkling of the finish on the right back go guitar is my biggest concern.

53tlYSZ.jpg
 
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gjmalcyon

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<snip>I'm trying to find the best way to preserve the back from peeling further, not keep it in a house to be played sparingly <snip>

A high-quality furniture paste wax, regularly re-applied? I don't know what that would do to any areas already lifting.
 

chazmo

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That guitar looks super-great, robot!!!!! Thanks for sharing the picture. That's the kind of patina we see all the time with hard-working, well-cared-for, wonderful, old Guilds!

For the record, I'm not sure I agree with Al about exposed wood being less of an issue on the laminates than the solid woods. I think I would take care of that. That said, I wouldn't do a refinish job on this. That old patina is just fabulous. I would probably do some spot lacquering to cover the bare areas. But, really, I would get a luthier's advice on minimalist care... In Nashville, you should seek out one of the old Guild custom shop guys (if they're still down there). I know a few of the folks here on LTG got some warrantee service from them back in the day and they might have contact info. If nothing else, give Gruhn's a call and he'll point you in the right direction.
 

swiveltung

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There are protective covers made for guitars..... or were anyway... I always thought they were silly, but then, I dont sweat much...
 

adorshki

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As you can see, bare spots and the wrinkling of the finish on the right back go guitar is my biggest concern.

53tlYSZ.jpg
Ok, that's buckle-rash and probably bubbling under the finish because NCL outgasses as it ages.
It's only on the back?
Then I suspect it's not a contamination issue unless a previous owner liked to play it topless.
A lot.
Best way to keep it at current state and prevent further peeling is an overspray of just the back, if that's the only place that's damaged.
 

iamarobotman

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I will say, this is the greatest guitar I own. I've tried several other Starfires and none of them even hold a candle to my '65. Everyone always tells me I will regret it the rest of my life if I ever sell it and get something more "practical" for touring, etc.
 

SFIV1967

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The cherry red paint on my 1967 Starfire IV also peeled away everywhere. When you hold it your shirt is full of little red flakes after playing. My solution was that I disassembled the guitar, carefully cleaned the guitar (just the dirt with some naphta, and definitely no polish as new lacquer will not stick to furniture polish or oil or silicone) and gave it to a luthier who overspayed it very thin with fresh clear nitrocellulose lacquer. Now some will cry to do this to a vintage guitar, but we are not talking a $250k Les Paul here and after all, nitrocellulose lacquer has the nice properties that it melts itself into the old lacquer and heals the demage. So now it has a protected finish again and it's ready for another 30 years or so. The whole process takes some days or even weeks depending on the thickness of the new finish as the oversprayed finish needs to dry again.
Ralf
 
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