Vintage Starfire bass owners: Can you help with a bridge question?

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A couple of weeks ago I picked up a 1967 Starfire II that had been the victim of a bad refinish. All the original parts were there except for the bridge saddles—which I’ve replaced. The bridge itself is attached to the body through a pair of rubber grommets. That is, each of the two bridge anchor screws runs through the bridge plate, then through a grommet, and then into the wood of the body. I’ve read elsewhere of there being a layer of felt between the back of the bridge plate and body. So, my question to owners of vintage Starfires basses is this: On your bass, what, if anything is between the back of the bridge and the top of the instrument’s body? Felt? Rubber grommets? Nothing? I’m talking specifically about the two screws that anchor into the wood, not the two height adjustment screws that press against the small metal plate under the bridge.

And any photos you’d be willing to share would be super helpful. THANKS!
 

twocorgis

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Welcome here vibrolux, and welcome to the Starfire Bass club. My '68 has a thin medal plate between the bridge and the body under the adjusting screws.

32395072918_fb49f004cb_c.jpg


When I bought the GSR M85II recently, my luthier noticed it was missing that plate on a near identical bridge, so he made one for me.
 
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Thanks, twocorgis. I think I wasn't very clear in my original post--I'm talking about the two screws that are by the string ball ends. Are you game to have a look there?
 
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mellowgerman

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My 1970 has the rubber bits. My 1966 had felt. I believe my 1971 JS-II also had rubber ones. Can't remember on the 1968 Starfire and the 1967 didn't have any since it came with an aftermarket bridge.
 

fronobulax

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By visual inspection, my '67 has two felt grommets at the "string ball end" of the bridge. They are around the screw shafts and between the bridge and the body. You can see between them so they are two round pieces rather than a strip of felt with holes punched. They look fuzzy so I say felt and not rubber. If I remember later I'll try a pic but it's not something I can do now.
 

adorshki

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My 1970 has the rubber bits. My 1966 had felt. I believe my 1971 JS-II also had rubber ones. Can't remember on the 1968 Starfire and the 1967 didn't have any since it came with an aftermarket bridge.

I find that extremely "interesting".
"Real" rubber wouldn't be an optimum material to be in contact with an NCL top finish, it would tend to "react" with the NCL and both materials would become a gummy mess.
It raises the question of whether those basses might actually be finished with something else as Ralf states here:

hideglue, who worked in Westerly said: "There was plenty of polyurethane sprayed in Westerly (solidbodies and archtops)".
See: http://letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?169130-Lacquer-amp-Poly-What-years

But "poly" is not one thing but multiple things. Polyester is resin based and therefore thicker & goopier. (In general not great for resonance-tone). Polyurethane is more expensive but it's thinner and sounds measurably better than Polyester. But that is what it was in the past.

Hideglue also said in the past: "Guild regularly used polyurethane as a finish for quite a few solid, semi-solid and archtop models. The experimentation, and subsequent lack of implementation, was with a UV cured finish, ala Taylor."

Ralf
I always thought that had to have happened in the '80's though, and I suspect the more likely answer is that it's something suitably "soft enough" but not actually rubber or anything (like some vinyls) that would react with NCL.
Something for the OP to consider when seeking replacement parts.
Also a new question about how SF bass finishes might have varied over time?
 

fronobulax

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"Real" rubber wouldn't be an optimum material to be in contact with an NCL top finish, it would tend to "react" with the NCL and both materials would become a gummy mess.

I bought my '67 used. At some point it hung in a rack with the "wrong" material and you can see the damage to the finish. I vote for NCL.

Given that you can't see the top under the bridge and the grommets are still in place, a case could be made that rubber was used and no one cared. But I present that opinion as a possibility and not as the most probable.

If I remember I can check a '71 JS II.
 

adorshki

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I bought my '67 used. At some point it hung in a rack with the "wrong" material and you can see the damage to the finish. I vote for NCL.
Useful datum for '67 (and I agree, "NCL"), but I was focusing on mellow's '70 because by then all production had moved to Westerly where Hideglue specifically said poly was used.
(Primarily for the OP'S benefit):
'67's a gray area for production location because both Hoboken and Westerly were up and running.
I think Mavuser made a good case for the likelihood of electric production being the last to leave Hoboken, though.
In fact was it in your thread about why so many "oddball" configurations during the overlap production period?

Given that you can't see the top under the bridge and the grommets are still in place, a case could be made that rubber was used and no one cared. But I present that opinion as a possibility and not as the most probable.
Right, understood.
My primary purpose was to warn Vibrolux about possible of use of a "contra-indicated material", although I'd be pretty surprised if Guild actually did it.
For one thing the rubber would basically dissolve and stop performing its cushioning/stand-off role, but who knows, maybe in '67 that was seen as just the way it was gonna be?
Or maybe they hadn't actually discovered the problem yet?
And then there's the "resurrected" revelation that polyurethane was actually used in Westerly, so maybe they knew rubber or polyurethane grommets wouldn't be a problem?
And again, I'd still be pretty surprised if they were actually using polyurethane that early.
If I remember I can check a '71 JS II.
 

fronobulax

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Well. Lesson number one. My cell phone does not take good closeups at all. Lesson two. I can't set up decent lighting in ten minutes.

Conclusion. No pictures from me.

I pulled out the JS II. The grommets are black but don't look like felt. They are round. They rest on a plate which is on the bass so whatever they are, they aren't touching any finish and thus not reacting with it.

For giggles I looked at the Newark Street. The "grommets" are rectangular. The material looks spongy so it is neither rubber nor felt.
 

lungimsam

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Speakin o materials used.
Sweetwater has a cancer warning on their Starfires
 

Minnesota Flats

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" Speakin o materials used.
Sweetwater has a cancer warning on their Starfires "

I think it's probably just absurd, legal, liabilty-protection over-kill because plywood contains formaldehyde.

A sad commentary on the place we've come to these day, IMHO.
 

mellowgerman

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The ones on my 1970 may not be rubber I suppose... that's just what they looked and felt (pun retroactively intended) like to me. They are however definitely not felt.

Interesting point about the finish. From my limited knowledge of identifying finishes and my considerable experience of playing a ton of different basses, I always took my 1970 to have a nitro finish. It is possible though that it's actually a very thin polyurethane or other poly of some sort. That might also partially explain the exceptional condition the finish is in.

As per the cancer warnings, as more and more tests in labs with test tubes and lab coats are done, I'm sure at some point in the not-too-distant future practically everything will have a cancer warning on it. On record, I predict that at this point, the ever-progressing poster-children of adaptability and innovation that are the human race will opt for the more economically harmonious method of simply stamping the forehead of all human newborns with a "warning: susceptible to cancer" stamp.
 
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fronobulax

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When I was a youth I had HO scale racecars and a track. The '71 grommets remind me of the rear tires, in appearance. Because "real" tires are made of rubber I will gravitate to using the word to describe things with similar appearances even though there is no evidence that they are rubber. Indeed some HO tires used a silicone based formulation (something else we don't want near the finish). I also note that there was a type of tire called a "sponge" tire. Again that image shapes my vocabulary.

This is not to debate what substance might be in use as much as it is to wonder at the way my descriptive vocabulary is rooted in cars I raced as a child.

As for the OP, I vote for adding donut shaped felt since that has the best chance of being period correct as far as I can tell.

To veer, why are those things there? Are they mechanical, making it easier to install the bridge? Acoustic - somewhat counter-intuitively isolating the strings from the body? Both? Something else?
 

mellowgerman

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To veer, why are those things there? Are they mechanical, making it easier to install the bridge? Acoustic - somewhat counter-intuitively isolating the strings from the body? Both? Something else?

I'm pretty sure it's to allow the bridge to adjust to the desired degree of tilt without having it be loose and floppy, though the forward tension of strings might prevent that... still, if they weren't there the back edge of the bridge would be jammed up against the wood (and more than likely dug into it)
 

adorshki

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" Speakin o materials used.
Sweetwater has a cancer warning on their Starfires "

I think it's probably just absurd, legal, liabilty-protection over-kill because plywood contains formaldehyde.

A sad commentary on the place we've come to these day, IMHO.

Studies have also shown a close correlation between extended periods of proximity to polyurethane finishes and accelerated fingernail growth.
I'm glad somebody cares enough about me to warn me about that stuff.
Reminds of my #2 favorite Talking Heads tune.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZYHP6IBoac
 
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So much great information here! Thanks for the replies. For the time being, I've decided to leave the rubber-ish grommets on the bass--but I may rethink that and go with felt when I get around to getting a proper refinish. Right now it looks like someone took some 60-grit sandpaper and a paintbrush to the poor thing. But for $200 I probably shouldn't be too picky. What a great-sounding bass--I wish someone would have clued me into these earlier.
 
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mellowgerman

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But for $200 I probably shouldn't be too picky. What a great-sounding bass--I wish someone would have clued me into these earlier.

Wow, yes $200 is a crazy good price for a vintage starfire in any condition. Out of curiosity, where the heck did you manage to find one so cheap? Pawn shop? Garage sale? From a friend?
 
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A friend of mine and I went to a woman's home to check out some guitars she was selling from her father's collection. Another potential buyer was there, being generally annoying and making her lowball offers on a few different instruments. After he left, my friend and I were finishing up a deal on an MIJ Telecaster and an old lap steel when I saw the Starfire. It's really ugly--a seriously bad refinish. I asked her how much she wanted. She said that the annoying guy had offered her $200, but she thought he was a d--- so she told him no. Then she smiled and said, "But you can have it for $200."
 
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