CMG president and video of Oxnard shop

Westerly Wood

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"We respect what came before us, but are currently building guitars that appeal to today’s guitarists. In terms of design, we are close to boutique manufacturers–I hesitate to call our shop a “factory.” Sure, production takes place, but almost everything is done by hand. We use CNC machines for some rougher work, but but things like our bracings are handmade. The Guild production is smaller and more “boutique” than ever before, and you’ll notice that right away."

aka, if you really dig the Westerly years, you are living in the past...:) nah, that is a good story and piece, glad to see the continued dedication to the brand.
 

chazmo

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:) Yeah... I read it as a healthy acknowledgment of the brand and the business.

In reality, it sounds like they actually regressed from the machining used in New Hartford. Braces, for example, were cut by CNC in NH. Some of the neck work that I saw going on in the vid looked (not sure) like stuff that had been automated in NH.

Anyway, that was a poignant question that Jon was asked. We saw from the first models out of Oxnard that they were *not* really honoring the past with respect to the neck joint, and those models really were new, not copies of the past. He didn't really acknowledge that.
 

walrus

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Interesting clip, thanks, chazmo.

Dorothy to Toto: "We're not in Westerly anymore...".

walrus
 

dreadnut

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CNC machinery will make every piece identical to the rest until you change the machine settings. Hand-made is exactly that - every piece is different.
 

adorshki

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CNC machinery will make every piece identical to the rest until you change the machine settings. Hand-made is exactly that - every piece is different.
Guild Gallery #1 (late '97) pointed out that at that time at least, each workstation vetted each preceding station's work and those pieces needing re-work were sent back through.
I'm sure they mass-produced certain parts on jigs for consistency, but I'm also sure the fit and finish, no gaps or mismatched seams, were due to final hand touch-ups for perfect fit on every part.
Sounds like Oxnard's actually replicating that philosophy.
One well-known example of Westerly variation was in the necks, though.
For new members who may not know, every single one was given final shaping by hand on a belt or spindle sander.
Neck profile consistency was one of the first things mentioned as benefiting from CNC machining when New Hartford started up.
I'm not so sure that's necessarily a good thing, now.
Maybe Taylor fans like consistency to .001" tolerance, but at least with Westerlys, we can advise somebody: "If you don't like the neck on that one, try another one, it'll be different".
And it'll be true.
AND funny.

Vive la difference.
 
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HeyMikey

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I kind of like the direction. Sort of like buying a custom Martin or Gibson that has more hand finishing in the process, but with standard features. Would love to see some F30 size 6 and 12's made in the USA.
 

davismanLV

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Thanks, chazmo for this little insight into the new company....

I think it's valid. As everyone says.... where can i play one?
 

chazmo

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You guys're all welcome. Oh, and Ralf, thanks... I definitely missed that! :)

Hey, Al, you might not know this but Bob Taylor toured the New Hartford shop at some point in (I think) 2013. I recall hearing from guru,jr. (I think), that Bob was quite critical of some of the hand-oriented parts of the process. It might've been the bridge placement part (in final assembly, that is, since Taylor doesn't do it that way) or maybe the neck fitting, I don't recall. Anyway, clearly lots of different ways of thinking about the problem. Bob's successes do not necessarily translate to universal appeal, as the continued existence of Guild proves. :)
 

Westerly Wood

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You guys're all welcome. Oh, and Ralf, thanks... I definitely missed that! :)

Hey, Al, you might not know this but Bob Taylor toured the New Hartford shop at some point in (I think) 2013. I recall hearing from guru,jr. (I think), that Bob was quite critical of some of the hand-oriented parts of the process. It might've been the bridge placement part (in final assembly, that is, since Taylor doesn't do it that way) or maybe the neck fitting, I don't recall. Anyway, clearly lots of different ways of thinking about the problem. Bob's successes do not necessarily translate to universal appeal, as the continued existence of Guild proves. :)

Bob Taylor's ingenuity was the CNC process adoption for better build consistency and the Pre-NT neck. the necks of Taylors were always genius and I think he was the first to really brand the 1 and 3/4 in nut width as standard on all their acoustics. Bob was not that concerned with tone however, IMHO.
 

adorshki

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Hey, Al, you might not know this but Bob Taylor toured the New Hartford shop at some point in (I think) 2013. I recall hearing from guru,jr. (I think), that Bob was quite critical of some of the hand-oriented parts of the process. It might've been the bridge placement part (in final assembly, that is, since Taylor doesn't do it that way) or maybe the neck fitting, I don't recall. Anyway, clearly lots of different ways of thinking about the problem. Bob's successes do not necessarily translate to universal appeal, as the continued existence of Guild proves. :)
It rings a vague bell now that you mention it, but I didn't recall it when I made the comment about tolerances.
Which I meant as being humorous for its truth but not "snark-ily".
It's just different philosophies of construction, and "Vive le pluralite"
:friendly_wink:
Bob Taylor's ingenuity was the CNC process adoption for better build consistency and the Pre-NT neck. the necks of Taylors were always genius and I think he was the first to really brand the 1 and 3/4 in nut width as standard on all their acoustics. Bob was not that concerned with tone however, IMHO.

Yeah, no slam on Taylor, but that's kind of what I've gotten over the years from light reading:
One of his goals was to demonstrate that tone can be made very very very consistent by making every example of a given model as identical as possible and CNC's the road to that goal.
I don't know if he had a certain "signature" tone in mind, but I think that would be more a matter of dimensions/bracing/body woods.
And I suspect one element of Taylor's appeal may well be that consistency of tone from piece to piece of a given model.
Might be a real attraction for touring performing artists: if something happens to an off-the rack piece, it's probably very easily replaced in any given town.
 
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merlin6666

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:) Yeah... I read it as a healthy acknowledgment of the brand and the business.

In reality, it sounds like they actually regressed from the machining used in New Hartford. Braces, for example, were cut by CNC in NH. Some of the neck work that I saw going on in the vid looked (not sure) like stuff that had been automated in NH.

Anyway, that was a poignant question that Jon was asked. We saw from the first models out of Oxnard that they were *not* really honoring the past with respect to the neck joint, and those models really were new, not copies of the past. He didn't really acknowledge that.

Ovation had used CNC for necks but also for inlays etc for years before the Fender takeover. Now these machines are quite expensive to acquire, and a specific setup for a guitar part involves a considerable programming effort and some trial and error to get it right. But once it's set up it's a pretty cool and efficient process (just saw one in action at the Kamaka factory two week ago). So anyway, if CMG took the CNCs from new Hartford then the programming on them would be a pretty important asset to have. On the other hand, Ovation continued production for a few years so they sure must have still some CNC machine left in the shop. Maybe they had multiple machines for different production lines, or CMG preferred to use their own and start programming from scratch and that's why there is still more manual labour involved.
 

fronobulax

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CMG preferred to use their own and start programming from scratch and that's why there is still more manual labour involved.

At the risk of resurrecting a dead horse so it can be beaten again, we know that a) Ren Ferguson had some issues with the production line in New Hartford and b) Ren set up the Oxnard facility. So it is possible that manual procedures reflect Ren's opinion, especially when they differ between New Hartford and Oxnard.
 

JohnW63

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^ That is a good theory. There is ALWAYS a divide between the hand made folks and the precision made folks. I would suggest that if there is a process that needs as much accuracy as possible to not have guitars coming back, then fret grooves and neck placement would be the two I would think of first. Do those things change the sound if you compared the two methods ? If not notably, then CNC would be the best way to go, if you can pay the price for the machine.
 

Westerly Wood

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Yeah, no slam on Taylor, but that's kind of what I've gotten over the years from light reading:
One of his goals was to demonstrate that tone can be made very very very consistent by making every example of a given model as identical as possible and CNC's the road to that goal.
I don't know if he had a certain "signature" tone in mind, but I think that would be more a matter of dimensions/bracing/body woods.
And I suspect one element of Taylor's appeal may well be that consistency of tone from piece to piece of a given model.
Might be a real attraction for touring performing artists: if something happens to an off-the rack piece, it's probably very easily replaced in any given town.

oh yeah Al, I can break my Taylor and go out and get the same model and it will sound exactly the same.
as a performer that is pretty advantageous.
 
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