b4ce- let's discuss them!

feet

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so i trotted my trusty old b4ce out of storage, and for the first time ever, decided to wonder about it, do some research and all that. so yes.

what is it?
any updated/current thoughts?
any opinions on the electronics? do they need replacing? is there a modern unit that works better?
and tell me about neck resets. my action is a little high- how do i know if i need one?
what kind of strings work best with it? (for plugged in use, mainly)

i've had it for more than a decade now. it doesn't get much use because i'm not really a bass player, so it only gets pulled out for recording and odd projects and the like. but i don't think i've tuned it once in all that time, and i certainly haven't changed the strings (as is my preference with basses). but it sounds great, its a lot of fun to play and it certainly gets some attention. am i wrong in thinking the sound is sort of unique? maybe kind of electric-y, but not in a bad way? not a million miles away from a hofner. but maybe its just my set up and the need for better strings.
 

fronobulax

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I gave my black B4CE to my sister because I needed a pure acoustic that had some volume. After I got the B50, the B4CE just couldn't compete.

I used phosphor bronze strings on it. I found that, as far as tone goes, it was the most versatile electric bass in my stable. I could get a lot of variety out of the Fishman. I never saw any need to reconsider the electronics and neither has my sister.

Several other players had told me it needed a neck reset. With fear and trembling I took it to a local luthier who said it did not need a reset and resolved the intonation problems by crafting a new saddle. If I'm buying an instrument I'd be concerned about needing a reset but if I'm just playing I would wait for intonation and/or action problems before I asked the question. There are several good sets of instructions to see whether a reset might be needed out there. Maybe someone else will repost them for me.
 

adorshki

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If I'm buying an instrument I'd be concerned about needing a reset but if I'm just playing I would wait for intonation and/or action problems before I asked the question. There are several good sets of instructions to see whether a reset might be needed out there. Maybe someone else will repost them for me.

OK I'll help.
Although I've never owned a B4ce- it's on my bucket list of pieces to get one day to satisfy my inner wanna-be bass player.
This is aimed a checking an acoustic guitar's neck angel, I suspect it would apply just as well to a B4ce:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html
Specifically I'm citing the "straightedge test".
I would assume the alignment principle between the plane of the neck and the height of the bridge would be the same, since that plane is used as the basis for selecting an appropriate saddle height.
And Guilds of the '90's were typically shipped with a "high action" since, if nothing else, it's a whole lot easier to lower than raise it to a given owner's tastes.
Unfortunately I've never seen a spec for "action height" on a Guild a/e bass.
I'd assume it'd be a tad taller than the 6/64" on bass E spec'd for all 6-string flat-tops in '97, but that's "based" on my assumption that an a/e bass strings will be more prone to buzzing and so need more fret clearance than typical 6-strings.
I could be dead wrong about that, in which case you'd simply have a lower spec for action height on basses.
Note also that alignment check is done with truss rod adjusted for flat and strings at tension.
Relief can be dialed back in after the check.
 

feet

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I gave my black B4CE to my sister because I needed a pure acoustic that had some volume. After I got the B50, the B4CE just couldn't compete.

I used phosphor bronze strings on it. I found that, as far as tone goes, it was the most versatile electric bass in my stable. I could get a lot of variety out of the Fishman. I never saw any need to reconsider the electronics and neither has my sister.

Several other players had told me it needed a neck reset. With fear and trembling I took it to a local luthier who said it did not need a reset and resolved the intonation problems by crafting a new saddle. If I'm buying an instrument I'd be concerned about needing a reset but if I'm just playing I would wait for intonation and/or action problems before I asked the question. There are several good sets of instructions to see whether a reset might be needed out there. Maybe someone else will repost them for me.
how does the b4ce compare to a real big boy bass? Where does the b4ce fall on the bass sound spectrum (if such a thing exists). I'm just trying to contextualize it in my mind, so I understand it better. I'm guessing there isn't a whole lot out there like it.

I do get some crazy sounds out of it plugged into my stuff, but I don't really use the on board eq much. It's either flat or parked on one setting. I don't hate what it does but just figure that the was something new and better out there. Even though it's a piezo, it sounds fairly electric to me a lot of the time.

As for the neck and the action, I'm not that skilled with the wrench and stuff and mine has had a serious neck repair so is leave it to a tech. The action is kinda high now, which I guess helps with the acoustic sound but makes it a little tiring to play. Id like it lower, since it is mostly an electric instrument, sort of.
 

fronobulax

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Not sure I understand the question, but when has that ever stopped me?

Unplugged with phosphor bronze strings the B4CE and B50 are very similar. They both occupy the same space in the mix. They both sound like a guitar with phosphor bronzes only lower in pitch (duh!). If you "dig in" the B50 has more volume and a touch more bass. My only beef with the B4 was overall volume. When I played acoustically in a living room, next to a single D25 I could not hear myself and neither could the people who were more than 5 feet away. It's not that way with the B50 :)

I tend to be a "set and forget" player and gravitate towards full on or full off or "flat". The amplified B4CE sounded enough like the acoustic B4CE that I did not worry about it. I recall playing with the EQ and getting a close approximation to my '67 Starfire (when it had dead rounds on it). I dialed back the treble to nothing, boosted the mids and backed of on the bass so it wasn't boomy. I seem to recall full bass and nothing else was an interesting sound unlike anything else in my stable, although not necessarily useful to me.

I can't really compare the B4CE to any non-Guilds because I haven't played any of them enough to have an informed opinion.
 

mellowgerman

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Frono, all this B50 talk makes me REALLLLY want that burst B30 I posted up in the spotted-for-sale-online section. Must resist. Must resist. Must resist...
 

fronobulax

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Frono, all this B50 talk makes me REALLLLY want that burst B30 I posted up in the spotted-for-sale-online section. Must resist. Must resist. Must resist...

I'll make it simple.

How often are you going to play with no amp, no electricity and want to be heard? If the answer is a lot then you know what is on the top of your list. Otherwise the ergonomics will lead you to play it less and less..
 

feet

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Not sure I understand the question, but when has that ever stopped me?

Unplugged with phosphor bronze strings the B4CE and B50 are very similar. They both occupy the same space in the mix. They both sound like a guitar with phosphor bronzes only lower in pitch (duh!). If you "dig in" the B50 has more volume and a touch more bass. My only beef with the B4 was overall volume. When I played acoustically in a living room, next to a single D25 I could not hear myself and neither could the people who were more than 5 feet away. It's not that way with the B50 :)

I tend to be a "set and forget" player and gravitate towards full on or full off or "flat". The amplified B4CE sounded enough like the acoustic B4CE that I did not worry about it. I recall playing with the EQ and getting a close approximation to my '67 Starfire (when it had dead rounds on it). I dialed back the treble to nothing, boosted the mids and backed of on the bass so it wasn't boomy. I seem to recall full bass and nothing else was an interesting sound unlike anything else in my stable, although not necessarily useful to me.

I can't really compare the B4CE to any non-Guilds because I haven't played any of them enough to have an informed opinion.
well that sounds alright. i don't really play it unplugged with others so the lack of acoustic volume isn't an issue for me. it'll always be plugged in. and the acoustic sound isn't much like a stand up bass sound either, which is ok, too. i'm just trying to get a better sense of what i have and where it fits in the bass spectrum.

not sure how normal or not normal the thing is but i got a fair it of wackiness from it plugged into various distortions and overdriven preamps. i guess i'd like to cheat it more toward an acoustic/upright sound simply because i have a solid electric bass and i play more acoustic stuff lately. i'll play with it over the holidays and try to learn more about it. i'm content to let it be itself that is useful enough to me. and if this keeps me from buying a starfire or hofner, than so much the better.
 

mellowgerman

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If you're looking for more of an upright sound, I would recommend getting a set of nylon tapewound strings to put on it and cut the treble and mids on the EQ a bit when plugged in. I personally never liked phosphor bronze acoustic strings in any conext because of the harsh brightness they can have when they are new or whenever they are amplified with a piezo pickup really. It's just not my cup of tea, though admittedly phosphor bronze strings are inherently louder. Still if you're saying volume is not a big concern to you, some tapewounds will definitely take you in the right direction. I just tried the D'addario tapewounds for the first time on my Gretsch bass (gauges 50-105) and like them quite a bit
 

feet

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Tapes are flatter sounding flats, right? I should look into that. Still a little skittish because it means a trip to the tech ( it's due) and strings are kinda expensive. And I do like the sounds I'm already getting; there's a lot to be had, but they are more in the " electric" realm.

But it would be nice to know just how far I can stretch this thing in either direction. I'm just super loafy when it comes to string changes so I'll probably just end up leaving whatever I put on there.
 

mellowgerman

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Here's a good video that compares rounds, tapes, and flats. He does it on his electric P bass, but the results will be similar on an acoustic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifqrU1Afd0E (actual string tone comparison starts around the 7min mark)

Keep in mind though, it gets trickier, as every brand's version of a certain style of strings can be completely different than the next brand's. Meaning that Labella flats will sound quite different than Thomastik-Infeld flats, just like DR Hi-Beam rounds will sound quite different than Fender Nickel rounds, and D'addario Tapes will sound very different than Rotosound Tapes.

For example, both the Rotosounds and D'Addario are considered black nylon tapewound strings. However, the Rotosounds are polished and super slippery smooth just like flats, where the D'Addarios have a soft, dry, almost velvety feel to them and these differences in formula make a big difference in tone! The Rotosounds are a lot stiffer and thumpier, whereas the D'addarios are brighter and slinkier (very similar in sound to the tapewounds Scott uses in the video).

LASTLY, I highly encourage checking out more of Scott's videos... they're the best bass lessons and discussion videos I've found on the web... and they're free!!

edit: just for fun, here's a video demonstrating the rotosound tapewounds and giving some interesting history on them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVEoNFSRDw0
 
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lungimsam

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Is it ok to use electric bass strings on acoustic basses?
Will it change the sound too much?
I love my Chromes flats on my electrics.
I want to get an acoustic bass one day. Was wondering.
 

fronobulax

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Tapes are flatter sounding flats, right? I should look into that. Still a little skittish because it means a trip to the tech ( it's due) and strings are kinda expensive. And I do like the sounds I'm already getting; there's a lot to be had, but they are more in the " electric" realm.

But it would be nice to know just how far I can stretch this thing in either direction. I'm just super loafy when it comes to string changes so I'll probably just end up leaving whatever I put on there.

I've had some strings on the same instrument for over 30 years. I'm still using a set of RotoSound rounds that were new in 1978 and have been on a couple of basses. While it is certainly true you can obsess about strings, it is also true you can just learn to make do with what you have.

Since you are not primarily a bass player I might suggest you stop wondering about the B4 and just start playing it again. Don't buy strings, or upgrade electronics and if you take it to your tech have something specific in mind like changing the action or fixing the intonation. Live with it and play it. After a while you will either move on, in which case your wallet remains intact, or you will have some fairly specific things you want to change, improve or experiment with. That will make some decisions easier although there are many times when the best solution to a problem is to buy another bass (and keep the current one) :)

+1 to mellow's endorsement of Scott Devine. He sometimes loses focus and so a 20 minute video has about 5 minutes of useful material, but in general I find his advice spot on and useful. He seems to have a passion for education. He does not want to be the best player on the planet. He wants one of his students to be the best player. If you notice his glove he wears it because he has a neurological condition and the glove helps him focus
 

fronobulax

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Is it ok to use electric bass strings on acoustic basses?
Will it change the sound too much?
I love my Chromes flats on my electrics.
I want to get an acoustic bass one day. Was wondering.

Dunno. I recall discussions about tension being a concern. If the acoustic has a pickup then the pickup technology will be part of the answer. I think folks have done it but they weren't always happy.

I would back off and ask why you want an acoustic bass? There are a lot of situations where an acoustic is not the answer (IMO) especially if your goal is similar to an electric sound. Do you really want to learn all about humidifying an instrument during heating season?
 

feet

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well, i meditated on this for a while, and then i had another one of my stupid genius ideas: what if i left the current strings on my b4ce and played up its thumpy, electric tones (which are quite different from my jbass) and picked up a relatively cheap kala ubass for my fake upright sounds. or i could, you know, not spend all that money and try the tape wounds.

its one of those "i won't know until i know" things. i'll need to record and experiment more and see how it is fitting into a mix. then i'll have a better idea, i guess. but it would be cool to keep my b4ce as is because there are some neat sounds in there that are very electric. and i don't think the ubasses sound all that convincing on their own, but seem to work ok in a mix, where the focus isn't on it as much.

edit- took a weird, sideways $10 gamble and bought some acoustic upright bass impulse responses to see what that did. and well, it doesn't sound bad. a definite improvement. been going back in forth between kala demos and my ir tracks and the guild certainly sounds bigger and bassier, with some more snap to it. the kala sounds, well, rubbery. technique matters a lot, and what is you are playing, but i think the guild/ir combo will work for now. it is worth exploring further, at least. with a little reverb, maybe panned some, you get a more realistic, "guy in the corner of the room" sound to it. fun to play and listen to, a little harder to get to translate through a mix.

but i'll keep the kala in mind. that may be more receptive to the impulse response. or if i wanted to lean into it harder, tapes on the guild. you can hear the snappyness and twang of the roundwounds come through, which isn't necesarily a bad or inauthentic thing. a little surprised by the results because i tried some impulse responses with my m20, and although nothing really matched the guitar, the results just sucked. and i generally hate what i've heard from guitar irs but the bass one seems to work much better. i'm using 3 sigma audio irs, by the way. prescott bass for the b4ce, and their j45 model for the m20 (yeah, i know. i may try it again with a closer sounding instrument, but i'm not optimistic).
 
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fronobulax

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Thanks for the update.

If you are willing to spend money and buy an instrument that many bassists do not like to play (i.e. the Kala) you might consider one of these, which at least has a Guild logo for you :)

1987dB-100.jpg


Ashbory bass. Image courtesy of Guilds of Grot.
 

hieronymous

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I have a U-Bass (mine is a custom by Road Toad who later licensed the design to Kala) - I have only played a Kala once or twice in a store, but the concept with the Pahoehoe polyurethane strings is the same. I love playing mine, but it requires its own technique. The feeling of the strings on your fingers (both plucking and fretting) is very different - I can't do slides down the neck because my fingers stick. But it sounds wonderful to me. Also, putting new strings on is a pain - it takes a long time for them to stretch in - took me a long time to figure that out! There are other string options, but my understanding is that they sound significantly different too. I have also heard of people using the Pahoehoe strings on the Guild Ashbory, having also heard the the original silicone strings were problematic for some.

Here's my U-Bass (the model is actually called the Tadpole) with my new amp for it, a Vox VX50-BA:

46258039532_dd1937b0ec_o.jpg


And all the usual disclaimers apply of course (YMMV, TBYB, etc.), especially since mine uses different pickups than the standard Kala U-Bass.
 

mellowgerman

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I bought a Donner Uke bass off of ebay for my girlfriend for Christmas. They are made in China but, based on the limited time I've spent with a Kala, sound and feel very similar. Looks great too. Shipped very quickly and came with a nice gig bag. I prefer my big Guild B-240e acoustic bass on the couch and if I'm plugging in it will be my Starfire 99% of the time. However, she loves it and it cerrainly does what it does very well. They're fun and only cost about 1/3 of the Kala. Just thought I'd throw that out there as a budget option.

LSbyoZU.jpg


2JOwBZY.jpg
 
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