Mahogany source?

dreadnut

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Just out of curiosity; does anyone know the source of the 'hog Guild was using on the '70's? I assume it was South American.

Another question; how long did Guild typically own the wood before using it? Did they have to do any curing or aging of their woods? But I'm assuming they didn't buy their wood green.
 

AcornHouse

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I think he’s talking about necks, flattop back&sides, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong. Which would be Honduran mahogany, which is not always from Honduras, but in that region. I don’t think the various African mahoganies (khaya, sapele, etc) were common until later.
 

fronobulax

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IIRC at New Hartford (which is not what was asked) wood was stored for at least 6 months. They had a drying "oven" and a humidity controlled storage room. I think those were for consistency when the wood was used rather than because it was greenish when purchased.
 

adorshki

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I think he’s talking about necks, flattop back&sides, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong. Which would be Honduran mahogany, which is not always from Honduras, but in that region.
Right, Swietenia Macrophylla's range extends from Mexico to Brazil:
From the usual source:
Honduran or big-leaf mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla), with a range from Mexico to southern Amazonia in Brazil, the most widespread species of mahogany and the only true mahogany species commercially grown today.[1]Illegal logging of S. macrophylla, and its highly destructive environmental effects,[2] led to the species' placement in 2003 on Appendix II of Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES), the first time that a high-volume, high-value tree was listed on Appendix II.[3]
In 1907 the total of mahogany from all sources imported into Europe was 159,830 tons, of which 121,743 tons were from West Africa.[37] By this time mahogany from Cuba, Haiti and other West Indian sources had become increasingly difficult to obtain in commercial sizes, and by the late 20th century Central American and even South American mahogany was heading in a similar direction. In 1975 S. humilis was placed on CITES Appendix II followed by S. mahagoni in 1992. The most abundant species, S. macrophylla, was placed on Appendix III in 1995 and moved to Appendix II in 2003.

I don’t think the various African mahoganies (khaya, sapele, etc) were common until later.
I thought that as well but now think perhaps the qualifier should be "in North America".
Previously it's gotten by me that 3/4 of Europe's tonnage was coming from Africa in the early 1900's, perhaps not in-coincidentally during the still-extant period of Colonial Rule preceding WW I.
I do believe that the majority of tonnage in North America was from South America, though, and that builders here only started looking for alternatives in '95 when Honduran was placed on CITES sched II, and that was further motivated when it was bumped up from sched II to sched III in '03.
Note that would have coincided with the F30 Koa Avalon Island Limited Edition out of Corona, and other builders' early experiments with Koa and Sapele..
Don't think Westerly ever used Koa.

I believe the Guild Mark III's were Peruvian Mahogany.
Don't know if this is new or I just never "retained it" before, but the same Wiki link says:
The leading importer of mahogany is the United States, followed by Britain;[1] while the largest exporter today is Peru, which surpassed Brazil after that country banned mahogany exports in 2001.
So while that doesn't "prove" it's Peruvian, it proves it's been a significant source for some time, at least.
IIRC at New Hartford (which is not what was asked) wood was stored for at least 6 months. They had a drying "oven" and a humidity controlled storage room. I think those were for consistency when the wood was used rather than because it was greenish when purchased.
Reference to a kiln was made in Guild Gallery #1, as well, and it's not uncommon.
It provides a more controlled and consistent curing of green wood.

Another question; how long did Guild typically own the wood before using it? Did they have to do any curing or aging of their woods? But I'm assuming they didn't buy their wood green.
This article from one of the Guild Gallerys gives some insight:
http://www.westerlyguildguitars.com/articles/woodselection.pdf
It explains that Willie Fritscher used to go directly to lumber suppliers and select the logs, although I'm pretty darn sure he let the mills cut 'em, but drying is normally part of that process, and I'm sure the "raw" slabs were further dried at Westerly to optimum moisture content for guitar making.
How long did they own it?
Don't think I ever saw an answer to that, but would be kind of surprised if they intentionally stored it strictly to "Age" it.
Only ever heard of a stash of Brazilian that was conserved for special uses, and it occurs to me that even this may have been "topped off" over the years.
Example the 50th Anni D55's (Corona '03) were supposed to have been built with Braz from the "Stash", IIRC.
And there was even some Braz sighted at New Hartford although I don't recall if it was ID'd as having been from "the" long-standing stash or not.
 
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AcornHouse

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Also, whenever they talk about importing tonnages of wood, its usually for the furniture industry. The guitar industry is a much smaller market, and more selective.
 

adorshki

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Also, whenever they talk about importing tonnages of wood, its usually for the furniture industry. The guitar industry is a much smaller market, and more selective.

Right, but it just indicates there was a significant African mahogany logging industry extant in early 1900's, even if it was serving Europe's demand.
That hadn't really registered with me before.
Just assumed African sources weren't sought out until the original sources started getting harder to obtain.
 

Prince of Darkness

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Right, but it just indicates there was a significant African mahogany logging industry extant in early 1900's, even if it was serving Europe's demand.
That hadn't really registered with me before.
Just assumed African sources weren't sought out until the original sources started getting harder to obtain.
Further to this, it makes more sense, from a logistics viewpoint , for Europe to source the wood from Africa and North America to source from Central & South America. That said, I do believe that European guitar makers have traditionally used the same sources as North America, unless they were using a locally produced wood:happy:
 

adorshki

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Further to this, it makes more sense, from a logistics viewpoint , for Europe to source the wood from Africa and North America to source from Central & South America.
Yep, that occurred to me to. The whole logistics thing seems pretty logical, it is the way things usually work.
In fact Cuba was the original and prime source for mahogany until post WWII according to Wiki.; and it was going to Spain before the pilgrims hit Plymouth Rock:
"The earliest recorded use of S. mahagoni was in 1514. This date year was carved into a rough-hewn cross placed in the Catedral de Santa María la Menor in Santo Domingo (now the capital of the Dominican Republic), at the beginning of the building's construction. Completed about 1540, it is the oldest church in the West Indies, and its interior was ornamented with carved mahogany woodwork that is still in almost perfect condition after 500 years in the tropics.[6]" (Yikes!)
And:
"Mahogany's first major use in Spain and England was for ship building, and during the 18th century it was the chief wood employed in Europe for that purpose"
And:
"Mahogany, cedar and other woods were shipped more or less regularly from the West Indies to Spain long before 1575, for Spain at that time dominated the world and its demand for ship building timbers was enormous...Spain turned to Cuba for supplies of timber suitable for ship masts"
And:
"During World War II mahogany was used in the construction of small boats from the 21-24 meter (70 to 80 foot) PT boats (motor Patrol Torpedo) to the small rescue boats that were parachuted from rescue planes; its use for boat construction increased from 1,350 M board feet in 1940 to 21,500 M board feet in 1943.[6]**** PT boats were often made of diagonally layered 25-millimetre-thick (1 in) mahogany planks with a glue-impregnated layer of canvas in between." Shades of a laminated archback D25!
***might explain why Cuba was tapped out after WWII?
But I'm still curious as to when Europe started using African mahoganies, and somewhat to my surprise, Wiki has nothing on the subject, only descriptions and uses of the various Khayas (African Mahoganies):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaya
Hmmm.
I think I have to chalk that up to a cultural bias on the part of the typical Wiki contributor, ie, the history of its use hasn't been merited as being article-worthy, yet?
I think I'll do some more digging and let "you" know....

That said, I do believe that European guitar makers have traditionally used the same sources as North America, unless they were using a locally produced wood:happy:
Yep saw references to that, for 'hog, anyway.
 
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merlin6666

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Further to this, it makes more sense, from a logistics viewpoint , for Europe to source the wood from Africa and North America to source from Central & South America. That said, I do believe that European guitar makers have traditionally used the same sources as North America, unless they were using a locally produced wood:happy:

Yes, I am not very knowledgeable about history of stringed instruments but I think that traditionally in Europe instruments such as lutes, mandolins, or violins were mainly built with local woods such as spruce (for tops) and maple, sometimes with other hard woods such as from plum, cherry, birch, or pear trees. Imported woods such as Ebony from Africa or other far distances were used sparsely for the higher end units. The high use of South American woods for stringed instruments probably coincides with development of guitars and ukuleles in North America in late 19th and 20th century.
 
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