General acoustic question

parker_knoll

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Hi guys

I normally post in the archtops section but I have a rare acoustic question so I've popped over here.

I have an acoustic from 1952; it was my dad's 21st birthday present. Unlike my electrics, it's not a Guild (apologies) - it's the other kind - but my question is very general.

It's all original and in good condition, no cracks in the body or top yet, but the neck has no trussrod and over time the action has become high and at the moment the guitar doesn't get a lot of play because of that.

I can get a neck reset but it requires the frets to be pulled; the luthier also suggests removing and re-glueing the bridge and putting in a new saddle, although that is less urgent. This will all set me back a fair bit of money.

My question is: is this worth it? This is probably the most valuable thing I own (I don't own a house), and I don't feel great about pulling out a set of original frets which are unworn (my dad didn't play it much), original saddle etc. Despite the sentimental value, I could sell it and buy a much cheaper but still excellent playable acoustic (e.g. a Guild).

Do you think it's a better idea to spend the money making it playable or to sell it as it is as an all original piece? Which would have a greater effect on the value?

All opinions welcome. This is not my usual area of experience.

Many thanks,

Toby
 

walrus

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Toby, for me it would be a no-brainer. I would either (a) keep it as is, or (b) make it playable and keep it. Selling such a family heirloom would be very hard for me.

But it is, of course, your decision. I don't know anything about your situation. Good luck with whatever you choose!

walrus
 

richardp69

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In general, I agree with Walrus. If I really bond with a guitar or have formed a really close attachment, I'll nearly always pay money to get/keep it right. I would think that would be even more true if I had a guitar that belonged to my dad. What a great memory/remembrance that would be.

It sounds like you're talking about a Martin so the value is likely quite high and may likely be worth the trip.

Of course, we're all in different placers in many different ways so ultimately you'll just have to make the call and I'm sure whatever call that is, it will be the right one for you.
 

parker_knoll

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In general, I agree with Walrus. If I really bond with a guitar or have formed a really close attachment, I'll nearly always pay money to get/keep it right. I would think that would be even more true if I had a guitar that belonged to my dad. What a great memory/remembrance that would be.

It sounds like you're talking about a Martin so the value is likely quite high and may likely be worth the trip.

Of course, we're all in different placers in many different ways so ultimately you'll just have to make the call and I'm sure whatever call that is, it will be the right one for you.

Yes, it's a Martin 00-18. I haven't bonded with it much because I only took possession of it a couple of years ago and currently it's not hugely playable, even when strung with 11s. Even in my dad's possession it spent nearly all its life in its case so I don't have great memories of him playing by the fireside, for example, although I did teach myself to play on it as a kid. He did actually play semi-professionally around the Bay area as a young man but he was a singer who strummed as opposed to anything else.

I'm not keen to sell it but I don't feel great about dumping original parts either. Have others had neck resets here?

I also feel like maybe it's not going to last much longer. As I understand it, acoustics have a finite playing life due to simple physics - the string tension pulls the top up and the timber can split. The luthier said while it's not cracked there are a couple of places where "it wants to crack".
 
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gjmalcyon

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My wife has her mother's '51 Martin O-15 that was unplayable for the same reasons. It was otherwise in good condition so we decided to take it back to the place of its birth in Nazareth, PA for repair. 3 months and pretty fair chunk of change later we got it back. It is an amazing instrument, and the tone that comes out of this small mahogany box is astonishing.

We don't regret for a second bringing it back to life.
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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Frets are wear parts and will get replaced as needed.
Even though the frets on this guitar are not worn out that isn't a good reason to not make the guitar playable.
If you were to sell the guitar, you will be deducting the repair costs as that would be the actual value of the guitar.

Get it repaired. the guitar will be worth it.
If you don't like it after the work is done, sell it.
 

CosmicArkie

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A couple things jump out at me....

1 - Why pull _all_ the frets? Only one fret is removed for a typical reset.

2 - Why mess with the bridge? Is it pulling up?

As far as future breakdown of the body, keep it properly humidified and it will outlast you. Take a look around at the _ancient_ Martins on the market. And note the "values".

Bottom line, I'd get a second opinion.
 
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GardMan

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Is the action high because the neck angle is off? Or because the neck has bowed?

Perhaps the luthier/tech suggested a refret because he is going to use new frets with a larger tang to try and straighten the neck ("Compression fretting"). In the absence of an adjustable truss rod, that would be one option to straighten out a bowed neck.

You might get a second opinion... it may be that there are measures short of a complete neck reset that could make it more playable.
 

dreadnut

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Keep it humidified, tune it down a step, use it to play bottleneck slide.
 

fronobulax

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Think about the sentiment.

I have a 1930's platform rocking chair that belonged to my mother and it was always in her living room. I inherited it and at some point it needed some work on the frame and reupholstering to remain usable. The repair estimates were about ten times the value of the un-repaired chair and at least 2 times what a similar chair would cost new. The sentiment trumped the money and every time I sit in it I know restoring the chair was the right thing for me to do.

If there is sentiment then you do what you can so that you can play and enjoy the guitar. If there is sentiment you will never be selling it so the value to someone else is not important. If there is sentiment and a tight budget perhaps you and your luthier can break up the work to be done so that you do the restoration in steps.

If there is not enough sentiment then I would sell it "as is". It has original parts. The work it needs will lower the price but most of the people I remember posting here who paid for major repairs and then sold an instrument did not get as much out of it as they had hoped. Presumably a buyer will have an opinion about what work THEY want done and who THEY want to do it so not having the work done makes the instrument more appealing to them.

I also feel like maybe it's not going to last much longer. As I understand it, acoustics have a finite playing life due to simple physics - the string tension pulls the top up and the timber can split. The luthier said while it's not cracked there are a couple of places where "it wants to crack".

I'm not sure I agree with that. As an anecdote I have seen a performer with a pre-War Martin that is holding up fine. That is pre-Americian Civil War and the instrument dates to 1859 ;-) In general there are guitars and similar instruments that are still going strong after a couple hundred years so I don't think the issue is basic physics as much as it is the owner's willingness to maintain and repair. Cracked tops can be cleated, for example, with little to no impact on tone or volume, but the cost of doing so may be prohibitive or just uneconomical for the owner.
 

gilded

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If it's a circa '52 OO-18, it has a truss rod, just not an adjustable one (although if it were from a couple of years in the WWII era, it might have an ebony truss rod or just some kind of reinforced neck). If he wants to reset the bridge, it must be in the process of coming loose. And perhaps the saddle has been shaved down, too.

If you luth' wants to take out your frets, he probably wants to plane your neck's fingerboard, a lot, as well as reset it. Or perhaps, if you are re-setting the neck, some of the frets will get loose and he's just thinking that you'll need a new set of frets anyway.

You can probably get the same exact frets, with the same size fret tangs anyway. Why don't you go over to the Unofficial Martin Forum and see what people say about a) replacing the frets and b) where to get 'just the right frets.'

Good luck and come and tell us what the Martin guys say!
 

Stuball48

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Think about the sentiment.

I have a 1930's platform rocking chair that belonged to my mother and it was always in her living room. I inherited it and at some point it needed some work on the frame and reupholstering to remain usable. The repair estimates were about ten times the value of the un-repaired chair and at least 2 times what a similar chair would cost new. The sentiment trumped the money and every time I sit in it I know restoring the chair was the right thing for me to do.

If there is sentiment then you do what you can so that you can play and enjoy the guitar. If there is sentiment you will never be selling it so the value to someone else is not important. If there is sentiment and a tight budget perhaps you and your luthier can break up the work to be done so that you do the restoration in steps.

If there is not enough sentiment then I would sell it "as is". It has original parts. The work it needs will lower the price but most of the people I remember posting here who paid for major repairs and then sold an instrument did not get as much out of it as they had hoped. Presumably a buyer will have an opinion about what work THEY want done and who THEY want to do it so not having the work done makes the instrument more appealing to them.



I'm not sure I agree with that. As an anecdote I have seen a performer with a pre-War Martin that is holding up fine. That is pre-Americian Civil War and the instrument dates to 1859 ;-) In general there are guitars and similar instruments that are still going strong after a couple hundred years so I don't think the issue is basic physics as much as it is the owner's willingness to maintain and repair. Cracked tops can be cleated, for example, with little to no impact on tone or volume, but the cost of doing so may be prohibitive or just uneconomical for the owner.
Just what I thought about you Frono-you would like to be a little mean but your heart is too kind.
 

Brad Little

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I agree with those who suggest getting a second estimate/opinion. I especially wonder about the prediction that it's about to have some cracks, sounds like crystal ball stuff to me.
Brad
 

mavuser

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they all “want to crack,” especailly after 60-70 years.

sometimes the best option is take no action. I would hang onto it. maybe don’t put the cash into it just yet. detune it, keep it humidified, stay on top of examining it for cracks and such. play a different guitar for a while. see what more time brings
 
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That stuff about guitars having a limited lifespan is pretty much nonsense. I have three guitars that are on the order of a century old, and they all sound fine and are physically stable. One is a 1920 0-18 with a replacement bridge and saddle (the original bridge cracked) but no other work. It could use a neck reset and a bit of fretwork, but it is otherwise structurally sound and has a lovely voice.

A '52 Martin is almost certainly worth a non-trivial investment in restoration, even without a sentimental attachment. Exactly what kind of work is going to be a judgment call on the part of the luthier and that is going to depend on how much experience that technician/artist has. Treat repair and restoration the way you would a medical procedure--get a second opinion, preferably from a luthier who has a good reputation for doing the kind of work that's anticipated. (This is one of those matters where location can matter, unless you're willing to spend the extra for shipping and put up with doing things remotely.) I personally know two restoration experts I would trust absolutely with any of my instruments, and I know that there are others around the country who are just as gifted and experienced. This kind of work is not cheap, and a really good luthier is going to have a long work queue already. But as I said, a '52 Martin in good overall condition (that is, no cracks or seam problems) is certainly an economic candidate for a neck reset and whatever un-bowing is needed. (Be very cautious about fretboard shaving or bridge/saddle-shaving--they're stopgaps, not solutions.)
 

gjmalcyon

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I also feel like maybe it's not going to last much longer. As I understand it, acoustics have a finite playing life due to simple physics - the string tension pulls the top up and the timber can split. The luthier said while it's not cracked there are a couple of places where "it wants to crack".

He may be talking about the notorious Martin pick guard crack - the celluloid pick guards in use at that time will shrink and crack the top. The wife's '51 O-15 had that problem and it was nicely repaired. I think that issue is so common with Martins that the repair does not greatly affect value. The thought is there are two kinds of vintage Martins: Those with the pick guard crack and those that will have it.

The rest of the repairs we had done were: Replacement (and period-correct) tuning machines (the buttons disintegrated on the originals); re-glue bridge; reset neck; dress frets; finish touch-ups.

The guitar is now properly cased and humidified in a nice TKL case (replacing the original chipboard item), so we expect that it will be good for another 75 years.
 
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ClydeTower

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He may be talking about the notorious Martin pick guard crack - the celluloid pick guards in use at that time will shrink and crack the top. The wife's '51 O-15 had that problem and it was nicely repaired. I think that issue is so common with Martins that the repair does not greatly affect value. The thought is there are two kinds of vintage Martins: Those with the pick guard crack and those that will have it.

My 65 Guild F30 has that particular crack. Once cleated, its all good. I think it adds character to the guitar :)
 

parker_knoll

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Wow, I'm absolutely bowled over by the quality of the responses here. Thank you LTG. What a great place.

Sadly I must also castigate some of you for assuming my luthier is a man: she is very much a woman :) She specialises in vintage acoustics.

Some really great knowledge here.

Is the action high because the neck angle is off? Or because the neck has bowed?

Both.

To answer the widely asked question about why she wants to pull the frets, I believe she's proposing to clamp and steam the neck which involves removing the fretboard and thus removing the frets.

You can probably get the same exact frets, with the same size fret tangs anyway.

That's exactly what's proposed.

If it's a circa '52 OO-18, it has a truss rod, just not an adjustable one (although if it were from a couple of years in the WWII era, it might have an ebony truss rod or just some kind of reinforced neck). If he wants to reset the bridge, it must be in the process of coming loose. And perhaps the saddle has been shaved down, too.

Very interesting re. the trussrod. I just assumed there was none as you can't see it.

Re. the bridge, she's worried it shows the first signs of coming up although it's not happening yet.

As far as future breakdown of the body, keep it properly humidified and it will outlast you. Take a look around at the _ancient_ Martins on the market. And note the "values".

I'm getting the message about humidification. Time to not store in the understairs cupboard, perhaps.

My wife has her mother's '51 Martin O-15 that was unplayable for the same reasons. It was otherwise in good condition so we decided to take it back to the place of its birth in Nazareth, PA for repair. 3 months and pretty fair chunk of change later we got it back. It is an amazing instrument, and the tone that comes out of this small mahogany box is astonishing.

We don't regret for a second bringing it back to life.

This was a great story, thank you. This box is also extremely loud and resonant and communicative.

Many other great stories I don't have space to respond to, thanks.
 
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Westerly Wood

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Toby, for me it would be a no-brainer. I would either (a) keep it as is, or (b) make it playable and keep it. Selling such a family heirloom would be very hard for me.

But it is, of course, your decision. I don't know anything about your situation. Good luck with whatever you choose!

walrus

+1 to Walrus. Unless you really really need the $. Even then...
 

swiveltung

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The Martin is likely worth fixing properly. The neck, with no truss rod, on my '38 was straight as an arrow. It sounds like you should have the neck straightened and reset. You could likely avoid having the bridge messed with. At least for now.
I would ask her to straighten the neck first and see if that is successful before proceeding with the other work. If the fretboard is thick , as some of those are, I wonder if it couldnt just be sanded straight? The wood "wants" to go where it went in the last 60 years, so one wonders if steaming or etc is the best route or just a temporary fix?
 
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