Starfire Bass, mahogany or maple?

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Hi,
I’m new to the forum although I’ve read many different posts in the Bass section.

I have a 1966 Starfire I bass (pickup in the bridge position) that I’ve had for about 20 years. I just picked up a 1967 Starfire I bass (pickup in the neck position) that falls into the project category. It needs quite a bit of work but I think it’s going to be a great Bass when completed.

The 1966 is sunburst which I think makes the body maple. The finish on the 1967 has been stripped but was probably originally a cherry finish - the top and back look like mahogany.

Does anyone know if these Basses are either maple or mahogany all the way through or if that is just a veneer on top?

Thanks
 

fronobulax

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Welcome.

The rule of thumb is that sunbursts were maple and almost everything else was mahogany so your assessment dosn't contradict the common wisdom.

Ignoring the center block, it is a hollow body instrument. My understanding is that the top, back and sides were thin but solid. My understanding is often wrong but I will go with that. My '67 has binding and finish intact in all the places I might check to see whether the top was veneer or solid.
 
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Thanks for the info. When they stripped the finish from the 1967 they sanded through what I suspect is the mahogany veneer. There are numerous spots that are lighter in color and don’t look like mahogany as far as the grain pattern. So that is why I wondered about the rest of the wood. I’ll try to post a photo once I figure out how to do that here.
 

mellowgerman

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The easiest way to post a photo currently is probably to upload to imgur.com then copy the "BB code" and paste here.

As for the old Starfires, I'm pretty sure the tops, backs, and sides are laminate. Like Frono said above, typically sunburst (and some of the emerald green) were maple. Most others were mahogany. I always preferred the look and lighter weight of mahogany, but have had great experiences with both in terms of tone.
 

fronobulax

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Sounds like the next time I answer this question I should say "Yes. Laminate". Which raises the question - what wood(s) might be under the veneer?
 

Nuuska

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Sounds like the next time I answer this question I should say "Yes. Laminate". Which raises the question - what wood(s) might be under the veneer?


And after about 15 years of debate about quality of those unseen layers there opens the never-ending frontier of "what glues were used in laminating and how do they affect the sound . . ."
 

Minnesota Flats

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Of the "Newark Street" (MIK) and 1990s (MIA) Starfires I've had the opportunity to play, the maple MIAs have been the most acoustically resonant (despite having a shallower body depth). Could be that the thicker, poly finish on the MIKs has something to do with this.
 

fronobulax

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And after about 15 years of debate about quality of those unseen layers there opens the never-ending frontier of "what glues were used in laminating and how do they affect the sound . . ."

Well I wasn't intending to go there. It was more along the lines of what might they use? I have heard of wood laminates (not necessarily for instruments) that used a layer that was essential sawdust and a binder. Generic plywood is an answer that often stops further conversation. I can't imagine using something furniture grade or that is a good tone wood, so what is left? Pine? It is more a curiosity about construction with no intent to pick a quality of an instrument and discuss how the laminate composition effects that quality.

Indeed at some point it is appropriate to

FrankZappa2.gif
 
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Yes, if it sounds good I usually don’t need to go further as far as analyzing what it’s made of. Seeing this bass where the top was sanded away in spots I wondered if the body wood might be the same for all the starfires. Thinking that it might only be the top layer that was either maple or mahogany.
 

mavuser

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i once saw a pic of a super beat up maple sunburst Hoboken SF bass. it did appear to have ply or pine sandwiched in the middle of the veneer layers. unless that was maple, I am no expert.

I feel like the mahogany ones maybe arent built like that. they seem closer solid wood, just arched?
 

adorshki

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i once saw a pic of a super beat up maple sunburst Hoboken SF bass. it did appear to have ply or pine sandwiched in the middle of the veneer layers. unless that was maple, I am no expert.

I feel like the mahogany ones maybe arent built like that. they seem closer solid wood, just arched?



This comes up periodically in the acoustic forum.
Virtually all Guild flat-top acoustic arched backs are laminated.***
I'm gonna stick my neck out and say that in the hollow-body electrics, if the top and back are arched it's likely a laminate simply because it's so much easier to press into the arched shape, also it's stronger in terms of crush strength and crack resistance.
Simply put, laminates are engineered to be stronger than an identical thickness of solid wood.
I can't imagine using something furniture grade or that is a good tone wood, so what is left? Pine? It is more a curiosity about construction with no intent to pick a quality of an instrument and discuss how the laminate composition effects that quality.
Hans has mentioned that in the acoustics at least, the center layer (usually 3 layers with the outside layers being the "tonewood") was typically something "cheap" and light, such as larch or alder for example.
A final note is that some of the Guild hollow and semi-hollow bodies had laminated tops on purpose because they also tend to defeat feedback.
I could see that being seen as a useful design element in an SF Bass.
Solid "carved" arched backs and sides are also very labor intensive (read:$$$) and are typically reserved for the jazz hollow-body application where acoustic responsiveness is crucial to tone.
I was recently surprised to discover that even the entry level Newark St. A-150 Savoy had a solid top, undoubtedly for the acoustic responsiveness.
** the only exception I can recall were a small batch of F50R's with solid arched backs.
 
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Nuuska

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Hello

A little about general plywood quality.

I was in a lumberyard in Bloomington MN back then - asking for 3/8-inch 9-ply plywood. Man answered - "That does not exist!" - I say we have that stuff in Finland - he almost exploded - "YES - Finland - I know Finland has it - here in US no way!" - that was back in 80:s - they had 3/8-inch 3-ply. Those days Fender had a picture in their catalogue, where they told they were using baltic birch for amp front panels, because it was "best wood in the world".

I have built a LOT of loudspeaker cabinets for PA using baltic birch plywood - about 13-ply in 1/2 inch or 5/8 - then lately I wanted to build something with curved shape - you all must have seen scandinavian furniture made of bent wood - so I have this example sheet of birch 3-ply - only 1mm thick/thin - that is 1/25 of an inch. And they told me the thinnest they have is 0,4mm 3-ply birch - so about 1/64 inch in three layers of wood plus two layers of glue.

What I really would like to see is how on earth they manage to cut 1 meter wide sheet only 0,1 mm thick out of piece of birch using a lathe. Must have some very special blades.

Those materials are not exactly cheap - nor even low-cost - but they give you interesting possibilities - while you can bend them quite sharp and laminate few layers together to keep the desired shape without extreme expensive industrial machinery. Stuff like that has been in use i.e. on some airplanes.
 

twocorgis

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Welcome.

The rule of thumb is that sunbursts were maple and almost everything else was mahogany so your assessment doesn't contradict the common wisdom.

I know that the two green Starfires that I've seen (including mine) were both maple. My '67 SFI (living with Fixit now) was mahogany, and it had a darker sound than Greenie, but that was mostly from the single neck pickup placement I think. Never had a maple and mahogany SFII to A/B at the same time, so I'll probably never be sure.
 
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i have a maple and a mahogany bass. The maple has Bartolini pickups that were replacements specially for the starfires before anything like the Hammon Darkstar pickups were available. The mahogany one that I just got has a Novak bs-ds pickup which sounds great. But comparing maple to mahogany with the different pickups in each one won’t tell me much. I’m happy that each one sounds great but different.
 

Minnesota Flats

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Sidebar:

Saw an interesting documentary on Stradivarius (17th-18th century) violins years ago. These were (obviously) all solid, carved tops and backs, the "carving" having been done with hand chisels. Fine tuning was done by shaving incremental amounts off the insides of the tops and backs.

A modern violin maker evaluated/analyzed the vintage instruments extensively, scanning and mic-ing the thickness of top, back and sides and built a violin for the documentary, attempting to use similar tools and techniques. One conclusion that he came to was that at least part of the magical tone of the Stradivarius was due to the peculiar grain structure of the wood the famous violin maker had used. If memory serves, he said that the wood used in the Stradivarius had an unusually tight grain structure which had resulted from the longer, colder-than-"normal" winters during which the trees in question had grown.
 

adorshki

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Sidebar:

Saw an interesting documentary on Stradivarius (17th-18th century) violins years ago. These were (obviously) all solid, carved tops and backs, the "carving" having been done with hand chisels. Fine tuning was done by shaving incremental amounts off the insides of the tops and backs.

A modern violin maker evaluated/analyzed the vintage instruments extensively, scanning and mic-ing the thickness of top, back and sides and built a violin for the documentary, attempting to use similar tools and techniques. One conclusion that he came to was that at least part of the magical tone of the Stradivarius was due to the peculiar grain structure of the wood the famous violin maker had used. If memory serves, he said that the wood used in the Stradivarius had an unusually tight grain structure which had resulted from the longer, colder-than-"normal" winters during which the trees in question had grown.
Wikipedia confirms that and also says this:
"Yet another possible explanation is that the wood was sourced from the forests of northern Croatia.[53] This maple wood is known for its extreme density resulting from the slow growth caused by harsh Croatian winters. Croatian wood was traded by Venetian merchants of the era, and is still used today by local luthiers and craftsfolk for musical instruments."

But what struck with me when I first came across it was that Stradivarius "brined" his wood in Venetian lagoons:

"Some research points to wood preservatives used in that day as contributing to the resonant qualities. Joseph Nagyvary[54][55] reveals that he has always held the belief that there are a wide range of chemicals that will improve the violin's sound. In a 2009 study co-authored with Renald Guillemette and Clifford Spiegelman, Nagyvary obtained shavings from a Stradivarius violin and examined them, and analysis indicated they contained "borax, fluorides, chromium and iron salts."[56] He also found that the wood had decayed a little, to the extent that the filter plates in the pores between the wood's component tracheids had rotted away, perhaps while the wood was stored in or under water in the Venice lagoon before Stradivarius used it."
 

Minnesota Flats

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"But what struck with me when I first came across it was that Stradivarius "brined" his wood in Venetian lagoons"


*Immediately submerges one maple and one mahogany Starfire in pickle barrels in hopes of enhancing tone of same*
 

mavuser

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i have a red mahogany one with some relatively deep damage in the back, that is part of the reason i think it is constructed differently, but that is an old memory. ill have to dig it up and take another look. is there a chance it is two multi ply mahogany sheets back to back, with no plywood in the middle? the maple has plywood or something that looks just like it, im pretty sure. the sides of the mahogany probably have the ply wood as well. im just guessing here. there is something different about them.
 

adorshki

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i have a red mahogany one with some relatively deep damage in the back, that is part of the reason i think it is constructed differently, but that is an old memory. ill have to dig it up and take another look. is there a chance it is two multi ply mahogany sheets back to back, with no plywood in the middle?
If you're asking me, I'd say, sure, knowing Guild, just about anything's possible.. and I suspect 3 layers is the minimum needed to achieve the desired strength because:
The grain of the inner layer is typically oriented at either 90 or 180 degrees to the outside layers, this also enhances strength and might be the reason it looks like "plywood" in cross-section.
In the case of a bass perhaps it was cost-effective to use 'hog for all the layers, and the feedback-retarding thing might also make laminated sides desirable.
the maple has plywood or something that looks just like it, im pretty sure. the sides of the mahogany probably have the ply wood as well. im just guessing here. there is something different about them.
In fact the DCE-5 flat-top dreadnought A/E also had arched laminated rosewood back and laminated sides (extremely rare for Guild acoustics, I'm guessing for the same reason as a laminated top in a hollow body: Feedback attenuation.
More food for thought:
If you think about it, Guild was building hollow body electrics with arched backs before they built the F50; which sported an arched laminated back.
A while back I put 2+2 together to suspect that in fact they must have been using the same steam press they used for laminated arched hollowbody backs and tops as for the new arched back flat-top, so why not the same process for an arched top and back bass body?
Labor cost-wise it's miles ahead of any other technique: You glue together the flat sheets, cut out the outline (and the F-holes for tops) and stick 'em in the press.
WHOMP.
Done.
:friendly_wink:
 
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Minnesota Flats

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"i once saw a pic of a super beat up maple sunburst Hoboken SF bass. it did appear to have ply or pine sandwiched in the middle of the veneer layers. unless that was maple, I am no expert."


Mav,

The maple '98 SF-II you sold me appears to have a 4-ply top at least, that's what a close examination of the F-hole edges seems to indicate. The top and bottom plies are very similar, while the middle 2 plies appear to be a plainer (but also light hued) wood.

However, unlike some of the birch ply I've bought in recent years for woodworking projects, all 4 plies of the SF top are of equal thickness. The top and bottom plies of the of the birch were pretty much paper-thin (about like mahogany "luan" ply).
 
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