I'm starting to think my Gibson ES-137C is cursed

katthestar

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I haven't been posting too much lately. I gave my luthier two projects and he hasn't touched either one of them. One was the M-85 II, which is probably in a very long limbo (it's been at the shop 2 months so far). The other, is my Gibson ES-137C.
This guitar was probably the worst guitar purchase I have ever made, and nothing has gone right with it. First, I ordered it from Musicians Friend back in 2004 in order to have a proper jazz guitar. UPS leaves it on my deck, where it remains for a few days during the late winter.
Then, being new to jazz, I slap on some flat wounds without doing a set up. I play in a jazz band at school for a while, I'm not very good and the teacher kind of hates me.
One day while walking down the stairs to go home, the handle on my Gibson case breaks, and the guitar goes down several flights of stairs unassisted. I ended up buying another case and having my Dad stitch the handle with thread originally designed for horse saddles.
Finally, I get kicked out of jazz band and decide to play rock & roll. I take my guitar to a local shop with a good reputation. They tell me the truss rod is bent, so it takes them two weeks to adjust the neck and do a set up for round wound strings. I later find out that they took it upon themselves to spray lacquer on the top of my guitar as well, without asking me.
I play rock for a while, but I'm not too great at that, so I end up quitting for a while. Then I notice that the finish on my guitar is peeling off. I also humdified it too much at this point, because I wasn't humdifying it at all before, and had no idea what I was doing.
Finally, I tell the luthier I started going to last year about it, asking if he could fix it up so it looks good again. It is decided that it needs a refinish, which I really just wanted in a clear coat to protect the wood, because there's some gorgeous maple in there.
He has me strip the paint off, which does not go well. Gibson must've put ten very quick coats on this guitar and it came off like thick sludge. It was so bad that there was still some blue in the wood. Since I had never done this to a guitar before, I end up melting some of the binding with the solvent in the stripper.
I rush to get it to him because I know it's summer and I need to try and get a spot during the rush. I deliver the mostly stripped guitar to him on June 29th. I almost got hit by a car that day, then got yelled at by the people who almost hit me (it was supposedly my fault that they moved forward without looking for people in a parking lot).
I made a joke to my luthier about him having it done by my birthday, letting him know to take his time.
Fast forward almost 3 months, and he hasn't even touched the guitar....
My birthday is about a week away, and he just came back from another vacation this week. He's going to look at the stuff that came in while he was gone, get through that, and THEN look at my Gibson.
I feel awful, because I told him to take his time and summer was busy, but I thought he would at least start on it this month. I'm seriously considering pulling both projects from him, because I don't think he actually wants to do either job, and if my Gibson is getting pushed back multiple times, with the Guild behind it, I worry they will never get done.
I'm thinking of e-mailing him, letting him know that if he doesn't start on it in the next 2 weeks, I will take the Gibson back. He doesn't like Gibsons, but I thought since he was familiar with Guilds, he would be willing to help me restore it. I thought by now I would at least know when I would be seeing the Gibson again.
Am I being a jerk? I'm trying to be understanding, I know he was busy and that he went on two vacations, but I think he should've cleaned it up by now.
I always get depressed around my birthday, so I am worried I'm not thinking clearly. Part of me is mad and thinks he is being too cavalier with the job.
A coworker at work asked me about it, saying he would be willing to buy it from me and paint it himself. He does guitar work in his spare time, and I wonder if it would be better to just sell my defective and naked Gibson to him for a song, so at least it has a chance at being repaired soon. I can also at least get something for it, instead of paying hundreds to have it refinished...
I thought I loved this guitar, I loved how it was crunchy and loud for rock. I even got complimented on the sound I got out of it as a jazz guitarist. I worked really hard at Wal Mart to buy the guitar. I don't play much guitar anymore, and I went out and bought a Starfire III to replace the Gibson (I figured the quality would be better, and even though the Guild is 8 years older, it is).
I'm sorry this is so long, but I wanted some advice so I don't do something stupid. My luthier does great work, but I'm starting to think the work I give him doesn't matter as much as other people's, and it makes me angry. I'm trying to get away from situations that needlessly stress me out, and I'm starting to think this might be one.
 

fronobulax

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Ok. First this is a people problem, not a guitar problem or at least a guitar problem that depends upon brand.

On the Gibson - if something magical happened and it showed up in your hands in the next week or so, as playable and restored as possible, would it make a difference to you? Would you play it (and guitar) more than you are doing now? Would you be doing things where you picked it instead of the Starfire? It sounds to me that you and the Gibson have reached the end of your journey but you need to decide that because that effects what you next step could be.

I have met several professionals I want to work with, they agree to do the work and then it just doesn't happen. For various reasons I am unwilling to burn bridges even though the work isn't getting done. In this case I might tell the luthier that "My plans for the Gibson have changed. Do you know when you might finish it? I may need to pull the job." That gives the luthier a chance to explicitly commit to a deadline, acknowledges that you may have some responsibility for the job not rising to the top of his queue and gives the luthier a face saving way of getting out of the job if that is what they want. Point here is to not give the luthier a deadline as much as it is to let the luthier suggest one or return the job.

The results of that conversation almost certainly will influence the M85 talk but the same idea applies - get the luthier to suggest and agree to a deadline or return the job and let the luthier save face rather than confront them with the likelihood that they should have never accepted the job in the first place.

If the work is agreed to, with deadlines, then you can go all self-righteously indignant (if you need to) if they aren't met.

If the work isn't done, I'm thinking you may want to cut your losses on the Gibson and accept your friend's offer. You should shop around for the M85 work. The obvious choice is Jacobs Custom Guitars http://www.jacobscustomguitars.com/ which is Tom Jacobs, fixit on the forum, who once worked in Westerly. The only complaints I have ever heard are about the anxiety of shipping to Florida. Tom has several wonderful restoration projects he has done including some work on a vintage Starfire bass for Sandy (twocorgis) which is documented somewhere on LTG.
 

fronobulax

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P.S. - If you want a wider range of opinions, we can certainly move this to where it might have more visibility, but also more veering :)
 

walrus

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Absolutely, get the guitar back and give it to a luthier who will actually do the work!

BTW, I laughed out loud at this excellent quote that I could relate to:

"I play in a jazz band at school for a while, I'm not very good and the teacher kind of hates me."

walrus
 

adorshki

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I have met several professionals I want to work with, they agree to do the work and then it just doesn't happen. For various reasons I am unwilling to burn bridges even though the work isn't getting done. In this case I might tell the luthier that "My plans for the Gibson have changed. Do you know when you might finish it? I may need to pull the job." That gives the luthier a chance to explicitly commit to a deadline, acknowledges that you may have some responsibility for the job not rising to the top of his queue and gives the luthier a face saving way of getting out of the job if that is what they want. Point here is to not give the luthier a deadline as much as it is to let the luthier suggest one or return the job.

The results of that conversation almost certainly will influence the M85 talk but the same idea applies - get the luthier to suggest and agree to a deadline or return the job and let the luthier save face rather than confront them with the likelihood that they should have never accepted the job in the first place.

Yes people are funny sometimes and I agree 100% about always leaving 'em a face-saving way to back out if possible..
But the situtaion reminds me of another member who also said the same thing to his preferred luthier: "Take your time", thinking that was making it easier for him.
The last I heard, last year, the luthier had had it for a year and still hadn't finished the work.
I advised him that at least part of the problem was there was no real contract: A commitment to perform a service or provide a good at a specified time or by a deadline; for a consideration (payment or other compensation).
Absent any of those 3 mandatory elements of a legal contract, all you've got is excess carbon dioxide from conversation, no snark intended.
That's why an auto repair shop gives you a written estimate, it's a quotation that becomes a binding contract when you sign the authorization to proceed.
If in fact they perform the work without any variations from the quote, they have performed their part of the contract.
They are now entitled to the consideration (payment) for their performance.
And that's why they can put a mechanic's lien on your car if you fail to render the agreed consideration by the deadline after they've performed.
A contract protects both parties.

If the work is agreed to, with deadlines, then you can go all self-righteously indignant (if you need to) if they aren't met.
Technically yes but I'm sure you don't really want to go down that street.
Why alienate a guy you might still want to work on your instrument?
But it may help to understand what the difference is between a real contract and simple non-binding conversation.
If you have a contract and he fails to perform, you have every right to simply recover you instrument and take it elsewhere, no recriminations necessary, it's your legal right.
You've got a life to get on with.
Which brings me to my real opinion:
Yes, take the Gibson back, you already like your Starfire better.
Chalk the loss up to the cost of education in the world of guitar repair.
Get the recovery from your friend who really wants it.

"My luthier does great work, but I'm starting to think the work I give him doesn't matter as much as other people's, and it makes me angry. I'm trying to get away from situations that needlessly stress me out, and I'm starting to think this might be one. "

Yes it is.
I'd actually take the guitars back now with an explanation along these lines: "I'm sorry, I probably should have asked for a firm delivery date when I left them with you, but I just can't wait anymore. I need to clean up these loose ends."
Absent a contract, he's got nothing to gripe about himself.

In fact the member who I mentioned earlier even witnessed an incredible scenario wherein a guitar left with a luthier with nothing more than a receipt was eventually sold out from under him!
Turns out there was a clause on the receipt that stated instruments not picked up after a certain amount of time would be sold for costs!
And even though the owner had repeatedly tried to get a verbal commitment from the luthier as to when the work might be done, he was continually put off!
In that case a real contract would have protected him.
OR: What if your luthier is suddenly incapacitated and his store is put up for liquidation?
How you ever gonna prove those are even your guitars?
Food for thought.
 
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katthestar

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Thank you guys for your advice. I’m going to e-mail the luthier and use frono’s phrasing. I don’t want to alienate him because I have some small jobs that I might want to send him. I’ll e-mail FixIt about the M-85 project. If you want to move the thread, feel free. I was hoping others might mention Gibson’s quality issues lately, at least at the Memphis plant. I’m not sure I would buy another Gibson until the quality comes back. Shipping a guitar with a bent truss rod is unacceptable for a US made guitar with a $1,500 price tag.
 

adorshki

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I was hoping others might mention Gibson’s quality issues lately, at least at the Memphis plant. I’m not sure I would buy another Gibson until the quality comes back. Shipping a guitar with a bent truss rod is unacceptable for a US made guitar with a $1,500 price tag.
It does come up periodically, possibly you just haven't seen the comments.
I think these threads are fairly representative of the range of opinion around here:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...re-on-the-Gibson-front&highlight=gibson+Henry
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...-to-their-senses/page3&highlight=gibson+Henry
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...ending-NAMM-2018/page3&highlight=gibson+Henry
 

fronobulax

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Since you bought it in 2004 I wasn't sure Gibson's quality issues were especially relevant.
 

katthestar

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Well, part of my worry is that it’s been without string tension for a while. When someone at Gibson jammed that truss rod in there, they took away my ability to adjust the neck myself. So now it will need to be heat treated once the strings get back on, and I just don’t want to have to take it somewhere else every time it needs an adjustment.
It frustrates me because I already sanded it down, but he’s acting like it needs to be sanded again. Whoever repaints it will have to make it blue, or a blue green. I suggested a finish style Gibson did where the front was a satin dark blue and the back and neck were black. I think it’s the easiest way and would still look nice.
The Gibson guarantee sticker wouldn’t even stay down, because someone didn’t clean the surface in the inside before slapping the sticker down. I’m thinking of just picking it up next Saturday. I e-mailed him, but haven’t received a reply and likely won’t. I want to have peace of mind about it, but I think it’s too late for that now.
 

fronobulax

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I e-mailed him, but haven’t received a reply and likely won’t. I want to have peace of mind about it, but I think it’s too late for that now.

I discovered the hard way that people prefer different communication channels. I, for example, will expend an extraordinary amount of effort to avoid making (or receiving) a voice call on a phone. But if I want someone do do something for me, I have found I have greater success if I use their preferred communication channel. For example, I have had people not respond to several emails over several days. When I finally break down and call, I have my answer in 30 seconds. It was not that they didn't want to help me, they just didn't want to deal with email. I learned this lesson when the choices were usually phone, email or "walk down the hallway and stand in their doorway". Text messaging and instant messaging have added to the choices. I have had people think I was unresponsive because they texted me at a phone number that could not receive texts (remember copper landlines?) or messaged me on Facebook thinking everybody had Facebook on their phone and obsessively checked for messages.
 

katthestar

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Well, he has replied to my e-mails before. I sent him pictures of my Pilot that I just recently got and he replied in less than an hour on a Saturday. Though he never replied to my e-mail about the M-85 project, he did tell me he read it when I brought it in.
 

fronobulax

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Well, he has replied to my e-mails before. I sent him pictures of my Pilot that I just recently got and he replied in less than an hour on a Saturday. Though he never replied to my e-mail about the M-85 project, he did tell me he read it when I brought it in.

If I put myself in his shoes and pretend, that is how I would behave if I wanted your business in general but was on the fence about the M-85 project in particular. :)
 

katthestar

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I called him and asked him to come up with a timeline. I ended up telling him a coworker is interested in the Gibson. He said the best timeline he could give me would be the end of next month, and that he has quite a few other big jobs. He doesn’t really do refinishing. I’m not sure why he took the job, I think maybe he felt bad for me. He really doesn’t seem to like the guitar. He has started working on it, cleaning it up in the mornings for 20 minutes. He mentioned the M-85 project is easier and could be done faster. I think my only real option at this point is to pull it from him and sell it. I don’t think it’s fair to either one of us, or the guitar, to let it sit for at least another few months.
Is there a thread about knowing when to sell a guitar on here? I think it’s one of the toughest things.
 

adorshki

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Is there a thread about knowing when to sell a guitar on here? I think it’s one of the toughest things.
Can't remember one specifically dedicated to the topic, but can recall many comments from owners who simply felt that if they weren't playing a given instrument, it should be made available to somebody who would.
Personally I never bought a guitar I didn't intend to keep, so I "get" the question.
BUT I think parallel example may be the last (first-generation) Mazda RX-7 I ever owned. (And I owned 5 of 'em and even had 3 at once at one point over the course of about 15 years)
I held on to it with the typical intention of "restoring" it "someday".
I got older and tireder and less motivated and other pursuits took priority and a "kid" left notes on the car about wanting to buy it, and one day I said to myself:
"Be honest with yourself. You're never gonna do a bunch of the work yourself as you originally intended and it's gonna be at least a good ten years before retirement when you have the leisure time to farm it out.
Let the kid get his chance with it, while there's at least still some parts cars around to get the little things it needs."
So my opinion would be let that guy who really wants the Gibson get his chance with it.
You never know what might come of it either.

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I discovered the hard way that people prefer different communication channels. I, for example, will expend an extraordinary amount of effort to avoid making (or receiving) a voice call on a phone. But if I want someone do do something for me, I have found I have greater success if I use their preferred communication channel. For example, I have had people not respond to several emails over several days. When I finally break down and call, I have my answer in 30 seconds. It was not that they didn't want to help me, they just didn't want to deal with email. I learned this lesson when the choices were usually phone, email or "walk down the hallway and stand in their doorway". Text messaging and instant messaging have added to the choices. I have had people think I was unresponsive because they texted me at a phone number that could not receive texts (remember copper landlines?) or messaged me on Facebook thinking everybody had Facebook on their phone and obsessively checked for messages.

Why won't you answer my smoke signals? :-(
 
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