NS Starfire II String thru ??

fronobulax

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Thanks.

There is a part of me that is glad your luthier supported some of the suggestions from here. Not every bunch of cranky geezers on the internet gives bad advice and his comments help validate that.

Good idea on the extra plastic with the thumb rest. I had not thought of that. Could even be retrofitted to instruments that already have rests.
 

mellowgerman

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I think the physics would say that a longer string would have to be more taught in order to reach the same pitch. Thus the E would be a little firmer. But we don't need to resolve that here.

No intention to start a debate, but this genuinely sparks my curiosity and as always it's possible that what I previously thought to be fact is false, in which case I would love to learn the actual physics!
I was always of the impression that the speaking length of the string is what dictates how tight a string needs to be to reach pitch and that anything beyond the saddles or nut have no influence on this. For example, if you had one of those big hollow Hofner President basses and installed a shorter tailpiece on it, I can't imagine that this would increase the string tension any... am I wrong about this?
One repeat personal experience I would sight is every time I have installed a bigsby on a guitar that previously had a stop tailpiece. As long as the same brand/model/gauge strings were installed, I have never noticed higher string tension, nor have I had to adjust the truss rod to counteract such an increase (and I am very fussy when it comes to having neck relief set just right). Again though, I don't consider myself a physicist, engineer, or expert, so I could well be wrong!
 

Llewellen

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I don't know the physics either. However, whatever tension there is in a given string exists between the anchoring points: ball end and tuning pegs. The nut and bridge saddle contribute nothing or extremely little to the tension. In any case, ultimately it comes down to this, doesn't it: if it sounds right and feels right, then it is right (for me).
 

Nuuska

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Hello

Let me put this straight with a very simple test, that needs no other equipment, than you, your ears, your guitar/bass.

When you put a string on your instrument, the overall tension determines the pitch between BRIDGE and NUT. The length at headstock or behind bridge has NO ROLE AT ALL. The tension over imaginary non-frictional bridge and nut does not change - even if we extend the headstock and tailpiece to eternity ( where do we get case for such guitar? )

How do you test that?

Simply fretting somewhere - 5th - 9th - and so on. The tension remains - length changes. And before you all remark - YES - I am aware, that fretting increases tension, because the distance from bridge to nut increases - but isn´t that exactly the reason we adjust bridge saddles?
 

Llewellen

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I reiterate that I do not know the physics but, with respect, I think you have conflated two separate and different factors. The tension of a string is determined by how much it is tightened or "pulled" between the two anchoring points: ball end and turning peg. The bridge saddle and nut have nothing to do with that; they only create the speaking length of the string. Various tuning methods create different pitches for the open strings at full speaking length.

Fretting a note does not alter the tension of the string appreciably. It does alter the speaking length of the string so that it vibrates at a higher frequency than when it is plucked open.

I think :unsure:
 

Nuuska

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I reiterate that I do not know the physics but, with respect, I think you have conflated two separate and different factors. The tension of a string is determined by how much it is tightened or "pulled" between the two anchoring points: ball end and turning peg. The bridge saddle and nut have nothing to do with that; they only create the speaking length of the string. Various tuning methods create different pitches for the open strings at full speaking length.

Fretting a note does not alter the tension of the string appreciably. It does alter the speaking length of the string so that it vibrates at a higher frequency than when it is plucked open.

I think :unsure:


Again - the pitch we hear is the product of tension and speaking length - whatever is beyond speaking length is only tension and extra length.


I can fully understand your original quest as far those long-scale strings were not available in shorter versions - but that is all.

Just think once more about fretting - if we take two basses - one longer - for convenience the length of two first frets longer scale than the other - have same gauge strings on both - then let´s look at two different situations.

First - we tune them both to same pitch - obviously the longer scale bass has higher tension.

Second - we tune the longer scale one full step down - they both now have the same tension. Why - because : When fretting F# on long-scale and playing open E on shorter - they both have same speaking length - and while string gauge is the same they must be equal.

So - whatever is beyond bridge and nut is irrelevant - except for overtone resonances on those short sections.
 

adorshki

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I reiterate that I do not know the physics but, with respect, I think you have conflated two separate and different factors. The tension of a string is determined by how much it is tightened or "pulled" between the two anchoring points: ball end and turning peg. The bridge saddle and nut have nothing to do with that; they only create the speaking length of the string. Various tuning methods create different pitches for the open strings at full speaking length.

Fretting a note does not alter the tension of the string appreciably. It does alter the speaking length of the string so that it vibrates at a higher frequency than when it is plucked open.

I think :unsure:

Nope (or yep, depending on your semantic interpretation. :friendly_wink:).
You got it.
I almost jumped in a couple of times myself but both times I realized you did basically "Have it right" from the start, except for that statement that I think was just poorly worded:
"I think the physics would say that a longer string would have to be more taught in order to reach the same pitch"
I think you meant "scale length" as opposed to "longer string".
But your comment about winding length behind the saddle possibly affecting tension enough for you to feel it made me stop and think.
There might actually be something to that.
I wasn't sure if you meant the silk wraps present on the ball ends of some bass strings or even just regular metal windings, but they may be creating a sort of density variation at the anchoring point, or simply a variation in the stress (or tension) exerted on the string at different locations.
So maybe that does have some sort of subtle effect on total tension required to achieve pitch or just to fret the strings which is really where you feel it, right?.
Maybe being "stiffer" at at least one anchoring point allows the string to be "floppier" between the stops of the nut and saddle?
That could be an independent function of the tension required to achieve pitch at the speaking length.
 
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Llewellen

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One more try and then we had better leave this for the physicists :)

Imagine that we modify a short scale bass (30") for this experiment and we install an individual bridge for one string that is 6" behind the normal anchoring point on the stock bridge. We install a super long scale E string here without changing the short scale (30") position of the nut and bridge saddle - i.e. without changing the 30" speaking length of the string.

Beside it we install a short scale E string anchored in the stock bridge. Both strings are D'Addario EXL170. Both have the same speaking length and both are tuned to E.

Will both strings have the same tension? I.e. will both strings have to be pulled to the same number of pounds or kg of taughtness in order to achieve the E tuning?
 

mellowgerman

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Agreed with Adorshki. Same tension in that scenario because the saddle and nut are still in the same location.


Another relevant thought-experiment: a capo permanently applied on the second fret of any long scale, eliminates the speaking length difference between long-scale and short-scale and therein makes it a short-scale. It will however be one whole step sharp. At this point one must de-tune the strings one whole step, thereby lowering the string tension. In the end you have the same length of string from tuning machine pegs to bridge anchor points, but the tension is lower because the speaking length of the string has been reduced.

And please don't take this as an argument or anything negative... the topic was simply brought up in a public thread and now we're just bouncing ideas around, working together, and using the combined brain power of the group to try and come up with the best answer to a point of inquiry. We do this a lot on LTG and it's a part of why it is such a friendly and helpful community!

On a side-note, I totally do agree with you that the only "right" thing to do with a bass is whatever the rightful owner decides to do and finds contentedness in.
 
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Llewellen

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It seems counter-intuitive to me but I have no empirical basis on which to disagree.

Which leaves me in a bit of conundrum. I like the tone and tighter feel of a long scale bass but my hands, on the small side of average, much prefer a medium or short scale fretboard. Of course, there is a limited selection of medium scale strings that purport to have a bit higher tension than others (e.g. http://www.labella.com/strings/category/nickel-plated-series/)
 
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hieronymous

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It seems counter-intuitive to me but I have no empirical basis on which disagree.

Which leaves me in a bit of conundrum. I like the tone and tighter feel of a long scale bass but my hands, on the small side of average, much prefer a medium or short scale fretboard. Of course, there is a limited selection of medium scale strings that purport to have a bit higher tension than others (e.g. http://www.labella.com/strings/category/nickel-plated-series/)

I love those strings! I have them on my Alembic Stanley Clarke bass - short scale but with the Alembic separate tailpiece & bridge the fit fine.

I have flat wound LaBellas on my M-85 - medium scale fits perfectly - basically the same as a Starfire bass as far as the headstock/neck/harp bridge go.

As a bassist playing non-standard (i.e., not Fender) basses, I can safely say, in my experience, that STRINGS ARE A PAIN IN THE BUTT!!! I've gone through a bunch of strings for the Alembic, mainly to get a tension that it likes (and it likes the higher tension). The Guild I was lucky in that the LaBellas work pretty much perfectly and are what I am going for.

Best of luck in your string quest! I know it can be a crazy journey, I hope you find peace and aural bliss!
 

fronobulax

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D'Addario tells us more about string tension than we want to know.

http://www.daddario.com/DAstringtensionguide.Page?sid=c78fe25e-77e1-4368-860a-587f3db760c1

They say that the formula for string tension is:

T = (UW x (2 x L x F)2) / 386.4

where

T is tension
UW is the unit weight of the string
L is the scale length, and
F is the frequency.

This tells me that anything beyond the nut and the bridge should have no direct effect on tension.

The formula assumes the unit weight (lbs. per linear inch for non-metric folks) is an average that applies to the vibrating portion of the string.

If, as a player, I wanted to experiment with tension, the thing that is most under my control is the unit weight of the string. I cannot control that unless I make or modify the strings but I can select a string with an appropriate unit weight.

I can imagine a situation where I wanted strings with specific unit weights and I had to mix and match scale lengths to assemble such a set, but it is the unit weight and not the scale length that determines the tension.
 

adorshki

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but it is the unit weight and not the scale length that determines the tension.
(For Llewellen's insight: Scale length of the strings, not the instrument.)
And thank you for introducing unit weight (a function of the string gauge,in simplest terms), because it finally reminded me of the term that was escaping me yesterday: Ductile Strength.
Let's point out that that unit weight is derived in part from the actual material the string is made of as well as the gauge of it.
Any given material, be it nickel, bronze, or gut, has its own unique ductile properties, the ability to stretch and bend.
Gut for example, being much less dense than alloys, will always have a lighter unit weight for a given gauge than an alloy.
And it's correspondingly much more ductile.
THAT'S what gave me pause earlier: when I wondered if the wrap or extra winding on a string at the ball end could affect its ductile properties for that length of the string, and if in turn that might actually affect "feel" or even vibrational characteristics of the speaking length? Even if that portion of relatively greater unit weight was behind the bridge?
That's what I was getting at earlier when I said this:
"I wasn't sure if you meant the silk wraps present on the ball ends of some bass strings or even just regular metal windings, but they may be creating a sort of density variation at the anchoring point, or simply a variation in the stress (or tension) exerted on the string at different locations.
So maybe that does have some sort of subtle effect on total tension required to achieve pitch or just to fret the strings, which is really where you feel it, right?.
Maybe being "stiffer" at at least one anchoring point allows the string to be "floppier" between the stops of the nut and saddle?
That could be an independent function of the tension required to achieve pitch at the speaking length. "


But bottom line for your specific goal(s), "tighter feel" on a shortscale instrument:
The answer is a string with appropriate ductile characteristics, whether derived from using heavier gauge, or different alloy, or most likely the appropriate combination of your own discovery.
I can see that it's possible that an appropriate combination of gauge and alloy for tension may not yield the tone you desire.
That's where drugs come in.
:highly_amused:
Ok, joking aside, I note your instincts are good and Hieronymous endorsed those La Bellas you mentioned, so that's probably a good place to start.
 
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Llewellen

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Thank you to all for the "free education" :applouse: Much appreciated.

One last thing that I haven't mentioned previously is that, other things being equal, a higher tension strings allows the action to be set a bit lower which suits my playing style in some genres where I use something like a guitar finger picking style with thumb and 3 fingers.

I'm certainly going to try a set of the LaBella's that I linked and hieronymous likes. Nickel + higher tension might = very good.
 

Nuuska

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Hello

I just came up with an easy non-destructive way to test the effect of extra string length beyond bride - If you have any guitar or bass with "strings-thru-body" - take two equal strings - on a Stratocaster put them where E & E are - and on low-E string simply put a Metal tube or spacer or whatever on ball end to extend it there. Then tune them to same pitch and play and test.

The low-E has is shorter in both ends - whereas the "high-E" is longer in both ends.

And yes - I realize, that the high-E nut slot is too narrow - but you can still do this - and if you put a capo on 2nd fret the action will be the same - or if you use thin E-string on both positions.

Finally - tell us what you find.


EDIT - since you started this with a bass guitar - take two A-strings - put one in normal place and the other in place of E - now the one in place of E has shorter end-to-end length - tune them to same pitch - tell us what you find.


When this thread started I really innocently thought there were some special long-scale strings, that were not available in other lengths . . . original question had no clue of what was behind it all. The good thing is, that we all got a fair amount of brain exercise . . .
 
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lungimsam

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Last I heard, Imperial guitars and Sound in NY will order any LaBella guage, in any scale length you want as a custom set. But gonna cost$$. I think the memo email I got said starts at $36. Regular LaBella sets were $29 two years ago when I bought from them. They asked me to measure ballend to nut so they could make some shortie and med sets for my basses. But now I have just been using long scales strings. No reason to have to use shorties or med only.

I have since switched to the intense brightness/clarity and Piano string-like tone of Chromes. Their highest guage set is waaay hi tension!!!
 
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edwin

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You guys are way too squeamish about mods! Hee hee hee!

Anyway, the speaking length determines all, unless the break angle behind the bridge is shallow, and then the length of the string can contribute a bit to the feel, since the extra length will make the string stretchier. Same with a shallow break angle at the nut and a long distance to the tuners. It's not really changing the tension per se, but the feel. At least that's my experience.

Also, it's really worth contacting the string manufacturers directly to see if they can get you exactly the strings in the right gauges and lengths. Usually they will work something out.
 

Llewellen

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It has taken much longer than I expected but the thumbrest and saddles mods are now done. I have some pix. What's the best way to post or link them?
 

adorshki

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It has taken much longer than I expected but the thumbrest and saddles mods are now done. I have some pix. What's the best way to post or link them?

You need to get an account with a photo-hosting site, Imgur was the last one that seemed to be popular/free, here, but I've seen a couple of comments recently that that's no longer the case.
Photobucket alienated a lot of members by suddenly holding their images hostage for a new pay-for-play model.
Anyway, the issue is, this site doesn't host images, but you can link to them from here using the square insert image icon in the tool bar at the top of the posting window.
Files need to be in a specific image format (most common is the ".jpg" extension) or they won't show, it's one reason direct links to your google account images won't show up.
More in-depth explanations here:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?185122-FAQ-Posting-pictures-to-LTG
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...hotobucket&highlight=alternatives+photobucket
 
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