Looking at a ‘71 F112

GuildUpNorth

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Looking at a ‘71 F112

Curious to get some expert opinions. Looking at this vintage 12 string. The owner says it was his grandfathers guitar and after his grandfather passed it was put in the case and left in the basement. He said it was current looking at this vintage 12 string. The owner says it was his grandfathers guitar and after his grandfather passed it was put in the case and left in the basement. It was recently passed down to him and since he does not play 12 string he is looking to sell it. There are two cracks that look to be a decent length in it, he says they’ve been there for as long as he can remember. No repair work has been done to it at this time. Is this something that I should even look at, or pass on? I know the cracks should be cleated at some point. If it is something worth considering, what would a fair market value be in your expert help pinons?
As always, thanks in advance!
https://imgur.com/a/A4YT2FO
 

chazmo

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Hmm... Besides the cracks, there's, like, zero saddle left on this guitar GuN. It might need neck work. My guess is that you'll have to put some expensive work into this to get it perfect. Not because of the cracks, but because of the neck.
 

GuildUpNorth

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Thank you for pointing that out! Just noticed. Probably a pass unless it was almost free for me then.
 

mavuser

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look for one with the later bridge, is my suggestion. they are out there for sure
 

F312

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I think this one is on Reverb, and is discussed here, too.

That guitar needs a neck reset - it might be playable as is, but there's no break angle for the strings over the saddle, so its going to be very quiet for a Guild 12-string.

I know what too little a saddle and angle is and was mentioned in your link, what wasn't mentioned was too much saddle and an angle is. I have two guitars with a 45° angle from the pinhole and a tall saddle and they are superb, any more may be too much I would think. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Ralph
 

adorshki

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I know what too little a saddle and angle is and was mentioned in your link, what wasn't mentioned was too much saddle and an angle is. I have two guitars with a 45° angle from the pinhole and a tall saddle and they are superb, any more may be too much I would think. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Ralph
There's going to be a point of diminishing returns on saddle height.
If it's too tall it's more susceptible to cracking and/or leaning forward in its slot from the string pressure (resulting in bad intonation), before taking into consideration the probability the action height will just be too tall anyway.
GJM linked to Frank Ford's site Frets.com, on which there's also a short tutorial explaining that over time, a combined bridge and saddle height of about 1/2" has been found to yield the best trade-off between playability and energy transmission to top.
"As gross generalization."
:friendly_wink:
 
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F312

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There's going to be a point of diminishing returns on saddle height.
If it's too tall it's more susceptible to cracking and/or leaning forward in its slot from the string pressure (resulting in bade intonation), before taking into consideration the probability the action height will just be too tall anyway.
GJM linked to Frank Ford's site Frets.com, on which there's also a short tutorial explaining that over time, a combined bridge and saddle height of about 1/2" has been found to yield the best trade-off between playability and energy transmission to top.
"As gross generalization."
:friendly_wink:

Both guitars I mention are a combined bridge and the saddle height of 1/2", both are NH models, (F20 F30) I bought new. The string height at the 12th fret is a tad lower at 3/32". I tune them down a full step down when put away.

Ralph

Ralph
 

adorshki

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Both guitars I mention are a combined bridge and the saddle height of 1/2", both are NH models, (F20 F30) I bought new. The string height at the 12th fret is a tad lower at 3/32". I tune them down a full step down when put away.

Ralph

Ralph

Getting at your question about what "too much" saddle might be, then, I see a pretty consistent ratio of about 5/16" of bridge height to 3/16" of saddle, +/- maybe 1/32.
The principle there, I think, is that bridge mass is important in driving top and it gets installed first, so saddle is then usually adjusted to the existing bridge height to achieve the desired 1/2" total. *****
Back when NH was just getting up to speed, around '11 or so, I recall some heated conversation about the early New Hartfords appearing to show what some members considered very "short" saddles, but they may have been spec'ing more massive bridges on purpose, after changing top radius (on the D55 for sure) and going to medium strings on the dreads and jumbos.

*** I don't know about New Hartford, but in Westerly for sure, since the bridge was installed after the neck was set, they kept a variety of pre-cut bridges ready to match the neck angle of any given guitar as it came down the line, this explains the variations in bridge heights within an "acceptable" range.
 
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adorshki

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Something else for our OP to consider is Hans Moust's recent comment that Guild actually tended to use thinner bridges during a period in the '70's (mid-to-late, I think).
It was a response to somebody's comment that a bridge on a "for a sale" instrument looked as I it might have been shaved, but I can't find it to be sure I'm remembering the right time period right now.
I think that's what Mavuser was getting at when he mentioned looking for one with the later bridge.
Hmmm, couldn't find that recent comment, but found this thread which is kinda interesting:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?146811-Guild-History&highlight=bridge+thin
 

gjmalcyon

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I decided to look at the break angle on my two best-sounding guitars - the Tacoma DV6 and the Orpheum RW dreadnought:

The DV6, saddle+bridge height is just over 15/32":

wlc5CiBl.jpg


The Orpheum, saddle+ bridge bridge height is just under 17/32":

aUWLtvMl.jpg
 

mavuser

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Something else for our OP to consider is Hans Moust's recent comment that Guild actually tended to use thinner bridges during a period in the '70's (mid-to-late, I think).
It was a response to somebody's comment that a bridge on a "for a sale" instrument looked as I it might have been shaved, but I can't find it to be sure I'm remembering the right time period right now.
I think that's what Mavuser was getting at when he mentioned looking for one with the later bridge.
Hmmm, couldn't find that recent comment, but found this thread which is kinda interesting:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?146811-Guild-History&highlight=bridge+thin

Al, u have it backwards. it is the Hoboken bridges that are thin and tapered. they go into maybe 1972 or 73, and a floater here or there after. Starting around 1972 is the chunky “Westerly” bridge that goes well into the 80s, 90s, and likely beyond- that is the one I prefer. i prefer the Guild acoustics overall from this period though, with one or 2 exceptions of earlier Hoboken designs.
there is something about that bridge that makes it sound better to my ears. ive A/Bd Flat back D-25s, F-112s, and on a slightly different level, M-20s and F-20s. I like the later bridge with light strings (11s...9s or 10s on 12 strings). I also have a G-312 1980 w the later bridge and that thing is quite beastly.

the Hoboken one sounds the same with super fresh strings. i feel like with the Hoboken bridge I would need higher gauge strings, or something. I know that sounds odd. especially since Westerly is the heavier build. thats just the vibe I get. Especially with the F-112. I had 3 of those, now back down to 2
 

mavuser

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Al I am talking about the same bridge that is likely on all 3 Guilds that you own, same as the photo of the DV6 above^
 

beecee

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The DV6, saddle+bridge height is just over 15/32":

Dumb question but did you measure at the strings or measure the 2 pieces separately and add?
 

gjmalcyon

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The DV6, saddle+bridge height is just over 15/32":

Dumb question but did you measure at the strings or measure the 2 pieces separately and add?

Good question, actually.

Measured between the D and G strings with this:

0pM96pzm.jpg
 

adorshki

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Al I am talking about the same bridge that is likely on all 3 Guilds that you own, same as the photo of the DV6 above^
You mean outline-wise?
"Yes, but:"
Actually, the D25's about 9/32, just shy of the perfect 1/2" combined, almost identical to the DV6,but the F65ce is slightly thinner by just shy of a 32nd, but has ebony bridge.
And the Corona is actually "massive" in comparison to them, at 11/32, coming to a full 16th over in combined height.
Was never sure if that was due to built-in UST or just the way it was built.
 

F312

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NH had the pinhole closer to the saddle, making the string angle at a higher degree, in my observation.

Ralph
 

aamapes

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Thin Bridge Comment

Something else for our OP to consider is Hans Moust's recent comment that Guild actually tended to use thinner bridges during a period in the '70's (mid-to-late, I think).
It was a response to somebody's comment that a bridge on a "for a sale" instrument looked as I it might have been shaved, but I can't find it to be sure I'm remembering the right time period right now.
I think that's what Mavuser was getting at when he mentioned looking for one with the later bridge.
Hmmm, couldn't find that recent comment, but found this thread which is kinda interesting:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?146811-Guild-History&highlight=bridge+thin

Hans made that comment regarding my 1968 F-212. I still think mine was shaved - there is what appears to be tear out from a plane in the bridge surface.
 

Nuuska

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Distance from top of strings to top of guitar next to bridge between D&G

F212CSB 13/32 = 10,4mm
F512 71/128 = 13,9mm
F50R 33/64 = 13,25mm

All three guitars went to Westerly for pick-up installation and came back with thicker saddles.
The bridge on 212 is clearly lower.
 
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