F50 Truss Rod

idealassets

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According to factory specs, beginning in New Hartford were F50/ F55's made with 2 graphite neck reinforcement rods, or was that done just on 12 strings? Also what 12 string models- F412/ F512, F30-12, and F212 XL?


Of course it is difficult to know for certain unless the neck is opened up.


Thank you,
Craig
 

fronobulax

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I remember seeing necks with the graphite rods and much discussion about how they were not adjustable and were not the same as the dual truss rods once seen in Guild 12s. I think the easiest way to prove they are there would be to pull the fingerboard. I seem to recall that the neck was routed from the top and they were "dropped" in. I think they were only on 12's but don't recall which models. And the list of things I wish I had paid attention to or remembered from LMG tours is starting to get longer than what I do remember although I am pretty sure the memory of an unfinished neck with a truss rod laid down the center and a shorter graphite rod on each side is real :)
 

adorshki

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According to factory specs, beginning in New Hartford were F50/ F55's made with 2 graphite neck reinforcement rods, or was that done just on 12 strings? Also what 12 string models- F412/ F512, F30-12, and F212 XL?


Of course it is difficult to know for certain unless the neck is opened up.


Thank you,
Craig

Actually Craig it started in late Tacoma on F512's, Chazmo's has one.
Fender just never updated the spec sheet for Tacomas for that "running spec change" as he pointed out in a thread a few years back.
It was only done on 12-ers, as the first change to their traditional dual-truss rod system since they started making 12's.
The graphite rods were attached to the truss rod to act as stabilizers against twist, the truss rod itself is still adjustable for relief in the neck.
Not sure where you're getting that "F30-12" model, btw: did you mean JF30-12, which they dropped after Corona?
In New Hartford an upgraded dual-action truss rod was introduced for all 6-string models, I think the use of the word "Dual" in both systems may have thrown you off as it did me, several years ago.
"Dual Action" means it adjusts with positive thread engagement in both directions as opposed to simply loosening or tightening from the adjustment nut end.
That was actually introduced introduced in Tacoma as well, but I recall somebody mentioning New Hartford's was different than Tacoma's, seem to recall it was our member who got his Tacoma F50 replaced under warranty at an LMG event because they couldn't repair the Tacoma neck there, because things had changed so much design-wise.
 
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fronobulax

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The graphite rods were attached to the truss rod to act as stabilizers against twist, the truss rod itself is still adjustable for relief in the neck.

You sure about the attached part? My memory is of three "troughs" in NH necks but they weren't connected in any way,
 

adorshki

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You sure about the attached part? My memory is of three "troughs" in NH necks but they weren't connected in any way,
I can almost visualize a drawing from Tacoma lit that looked that way I think, but since I can't find it right away on the 'net, you've got me wondering.
And I'm realizing that doesn't mean New Hartford didn't re-design that either.
I also see that Oxnard's site says nothing about stabilizers in the F-512 neck, either.
 
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idealassets

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What I recall most is an informed dealer that knew about the graphite rods in the F512. That was a great selling point for me.

It makes sense to me that the 2 graphite rods would not be put into an F50 neck, although I have seen many F50's that were in need of a neck reset.
 

adorshki

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What I recall most is an informed dealer that knew about the graphite rods in the F512. That was a great selling point for me.

It makes sense to me that the 2 graphite rods would not be put into an F50 neck, although I have seen many F50's that were in need of a neck reset.

Remember that truss rods and/or stabilizers will not affect the strength of the heel joint because they're contained entirely inside the neck and the truss is connected to the neck heel, not the heelblock inside the guitar body.
So there's no mechanical connection reinforcing the joint (neckheel to heelblock) that is stressed, creating the eventual need for a reset.
Truss rods only affect straightness/relief in the neck itself.
The original purpose of the dual rods was to counteract the twisting force on the neck created by the extreme differential of tension between treble and bass side of neck in 12-strings.
That's another reason I believe the stabilizing rods were actually attached to the truss, otherwise they wouldn't be anchored to anything that would let them serve their anti-twisting purpose.
But I could be wrong, or I could be right about Tacoma but they may have changed the design in New Hartford.
I may take another pass at finding an image, I even looked at a page that recapped Fender/Guild patents where the bolt-on neck applications for the Tacoma Contemporarys found a few years back.
 
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idealassets

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OK, neck twisting on a 12 string. That could ruin someone's day. In time we will see if Guild's graphite rods have performed well. so far they have in the F512 that I bought new in 2010.
 

fronobulax

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Previous discussion here, in which Al also makes his attachment assertion after Chris Cozad pretty much says they are not attached, at least in his builds.

This is drawing of a bass neck, and the truss rod adjustment is made at the bridge end of the neck, not the headstock but it pretty well illustrates what I recall seeing in New Hartford.

rod_zpse2a13981-png.2259382


A search for "carbon stiffening rods guitar neck" shows a lot of images and many of them clearly show no attachment between the stiffening rods and the truss rod.

Here's another one.

55aaa8a0fd30d073e733f20f99fd9b68--guitar-design-carbon-fiber.jpg
 

merlin6666

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Interestingly, around 2004 Ovation replaced their 30-year-old super reliable Kaman bar technology with an "Advanced Neck System" that also featured two graphite inlays for support, and was used up until this month in their New Hartford manufactured LX models.

2009_Ovation_US_Catalog_05.jpg
 

adorshki

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Previous discussion here, in which Al also makes his attachment assertion after Chris Cozad pretty much says they are not attached, at least in his builds.
"At least in his builds" being the operative clause there.
Personally I'm reassured my memory has at least remained consistent for the last several years but I will accept that perhaps it was never an accurate perception in the first place.
I also find it comforting that the very early thread (http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...-action-truss-rod-system-for-12-string-models ) linked in the one you linked to confirmed everything I've said about the rationale for their use so far, but I had forgotten about the reference to the "dual action sticker" on the NH TRC 's.
I suspect now that was actually put there to warn potential adjusters exactly what kind of rod they were dealing with, that it wasn't a simple compression rod.
But it may also signal a significant change from Tacoma's system even though they both used the graphite stabilizers, as Chaz alludes to in post #8 in that thread.
I still maintain that even though there's a preponderance of examples of using the rods in "independent" configuration, that doesn't "prove" that Tacoma did it that way.
I just know that in about 3 months I'll find that drawing again and rush right back here to revive a necro-thread with an "I told you so".
It's happened before.....
:glee:
 

fronobulax

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Well to be precise, my beef is with the statement that they were attached in NH builds, which I firmly believe from personal observation, were not. Any other factory and I'm learning from you, not arguing.
 

adorshki

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Well to be precise, my beef is with the statement that they were attached in NH builds, which I firmly believe from personal observation, were not.
I didn't really take it as an argument, it felt more like a "logic" exercise in what's a "valid proof" vs what's a "probability" (Not that I figured you got 'em confused, I just wanted to be sure anybody else following this got the message) .
Anyway, absent the actual picture which may be a false memory on my part, I can't "prove" my own case, and I suspect we must be in violent agreement about that...
:friendly_wink:
(I was half-joking about the "I-told-you-so")
 

beecee

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[QUOTE
:friendly_wink:
(I was half-joking about the "I-told-you-so")[/QUOTE]

But 3/4 serious....
 
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