CITES Language

fronobulax

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I was chasing a White Rabbit, ... er Uncle Google ... and ended up on the Heritage Auction site looking at items from Neil Armstrong's estate. I eventually checked out instruments and saw this 1987 JF30-12 that will be auctioned in October.

https://entertainment.ha.com/itm/vi...001.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

What caught my eye is the seller's disclaimer.

NOTE: CITES compliance applies to this lot. International bidders may not have the lot shipped to them. Transport of such lots require special licenses for export, import or both. Bidders are responsible for any licenses and /or permits. Please refer to paragraph 36A. of our Terms & Conditions.

The referenced 36A boils down to saying export permits are the buyers problem and failure to make the proper arrangements does not absolve a successful bidder of the responsibility to pay for and take possession of the item in a timely manner.

Since we have a lot of non-expert opinions on import/export and CITES it was nice to see some of those opinions validated by a dealer.
 

dreadnut

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Can't imagine why this guitar would be a CITES concern.
 

Quantum Strummer

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I have a guitar coming from Europe (not an oldie but a new one built for me) as soon as the CITES process does its thing. It has a rosewood fretboard, thus the process. Much the same thing would apply to a non-US buyer of the Guild linked to above.

-Dave-
 

SFIV1967

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Didn't know EIR was a big concern now.
Any type of rosewood is. Unfortunatelly...

"A new regulation takes effect on January 2, 2017 that calls for documentation when shipping instruments internationally that contain any amount of any kind of rosewood or certain types of bubinga."

"it was decided that all species of rosewood under the genus Dalbergia and three bubinga species (Guibourtia demeusei, Guibourtia pellegriniana, and Guibourtia tessmannii) will be protected under CITES Appendix II."

"This includes the East Indian rosewood and Honduran rosewood - as well as woods like cocobolo (Dalbergia retusa) and African blackwood (Dalbergia melanoxylon) - that are widely used in the manufacturing of stringed instruments, marimbas and some woodwinds."

"When shipping musical instruments that include any amount (i.e. fingerboard, back, sides, binding) of Dalbergia or the other newly regulated woods out of your country as part of a commercial transaction, each one must be accompanied by a CITES re-export certificate. Even if the instrument was made with Dalbergia or the other regulated woods that were acquired before January 2, 2017 - such as a used or vintage instrument - it still must be accompanied by a CITES certificate and marked pre-convention when shipping internationally.
For example, a seller in Nashville looking to ship her 2013 Martin 000-28 with East Indian rosewood back and sides to a buyer in Canada must apply for a re-export certificate, pay the application fee, receive the certificate, and include that document with the guitar when shipping."

So to come back to Frono's post that "export permits are the buyers responsibility" is simply wrong, it is the seller who need to apply for the export paperwork, but the buyer in a foreign country needs to make sure import is working out as well, as the seller cannot be responsible for buyers country regulations. Now in the case of an auction house they simply push all responsibilities to the buyer...

Ralf
 
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dreadnut

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I completely missed that.

"The most recent CITES changes came into effect on 2 January 2017, putting all rosewood, bubinga and kosso on Appendix II of its protected species list."
 

SFIV1967

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CITES sucks. That's all I've got.
Absolutely. There are so many nice wooden instruments all around the world and now a trade between countries is almost impossible. Means I can't buy guitars in Japan or USA anymore. Just in Germany. Or Europe when I handcarry them and would have to "smuggle" them over the borders even in the EU. It all sucks. It's a nightmare for vintage (and current) instrument dealers!

And manufacturers change the wood for any export models: https://www.andertons.co.uk/fender-cites-rosewood-pau-ferro

Ralf
 
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dreadnut

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I wonder when they're gonna come knockin' at my door looking for traceability on my 3/4" solid mahogany plank floor.
 

walrus

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frono, I was hoping that was Neil Armstrong's Guild - now that would be cool!

walrus
 

GuildFS4612CE

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It seems the real purpose is 'fund raising'...tax on seller, tax on buyer...'conservation' does have a nice ring to it...guess no one told them most musicians are starving artists...:pirate:
 

fronobulax

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So to come back to Frono's post that "export permits are the buyers responsibility" is simply wrong,

To be clear, I was summarizing the auction house's policy by quoting the auction house's policy document so I am not wrong in the context I was trying to establish :). 36A is a reference to the auction house's terms and conditions and not a reference to any CITES documentation.

But yes, the CITES paperwork is the responsibility of the exporter which in most transaction is the seller (or owner) of the object. The auction house is making it clear they will not accept the responsibility for acting as the exporter.
 

adorshki

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Musicians and vintage instruments are collateral damage and a tiny fraction of the total market in these woods.
The (wood) restrictions are aimed at volume production furniture makers and corrupt governmental entities in source countries who supply them by enabling non-sustainable harvesting of ANY species, flora OR fauna.
Unfortunately writing "exemption language" for pre-convention personal instruments is far down the list of priorities right now.
In fact I suspect they're done with it, since a personal instrument carry permit is readily available here in the US, at least, as well as the 10-kilogram blanket exemption for personal property hand carried and not intended for resale.
No snark intended, but I get a little tired of the CITES bashing, absent any suggestions for a better solution.
Remember the Dodo.
 
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