String volume balance... piezo pickup

swiveltung

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Anyone have any thoughts on how to balance the volume string to string? It seems a fairly typical problem guitar to guitar for my guitars, but I have one old F4CE Guild that I love live, great tone, but just seems to disappear on the high E string playing live.
I dont want to change the tone/add treble, I want volume change.
 

Rayk

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Few things , one is the UST could be faulty . 2) It might not be fitted correctly , mostly length issues that I’ve seen . 3) the saddle and or the saddle slot is not cut right , both have to be perfectly flat across the bottom . It’s not overly uncommon for the saddle slot not to be routed true but odds are the bottom of the saddle could be the issue .
4 ) it’s just a plain cheap UST , replace when funds are available. Note need to check UST voltage or amperage if replacing to match preamp unless getting a OEM replacement.
5 ) possible preamp issues , I’ve had that happen.
Good luck . 😁
 

swiveltung

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Yeah, it's hard to figure if it's just a typical thing and it's bugging me, or something's wrong. I checked out the slot when I just restrung and the pickup is full length and the slot looks clean. With the high E often being less loud typically... hmmm not sure. I've been through piezo changes and even pre amp change on another Guild and in the end didn't feel I did anything toward the better.

What the world needs is a EQ pedal that has volume adjustment on several frequency bands! Maybe I should try an EQ pedal I have... isn't that what they actually do, enhance or degrade the volume of a particular EQ band? DUH.... I think I answered my own question!
I also wonder if that string is choked a bit moving up the neck. Need to do level check I guess.
 
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CosmicArkie

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As Ray stated, make sure the bottom of the saddle and the slot are square/flat. And make sure the UST reaches the far end of the slot - at times I've had them kind of slip back down the hole in the bridge/plate.

The other thing I've tried with some success is to shim the offending area of the slot with small slices of feeler gauges, maybe .010 or so, just to make sure the UST is mashed against the saddle. Had to do that on a Martin years ago. A full length slice of feeler gauge can be laid under the saddle as well.

YMMV
 

Br1ck

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IMHO, the only thing an undersaddle pickup is good for is if you play in a loud band. Even then a mag soundhole pickup is what I'd use. Time for a SBT of your choice. UST+ volume= duck pond.

See Dazzo discussions if you wish to ditch massive EQ need.
 

swiveltung

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I have many soundhole pickups and had many others. I like them pretty well, but overall a good piezo provides great tone... if you want acoustic tone that is. This is actually one of the few acoustics I have that doesnt have both. But that warm wonderful tone is just great for me. I was just thinking how I love the tone of that guitar yesterday while playing but wishing the high E was louder at the same time!
 

adorshki

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I have many soundhole pickups and had many others. I like them pretty well, but overall a good piezo provides great tone... if you want acoustic tone that is. This is actually one of the few acoustics I have that doesnt have both. But that warm wonderful tone is just great for me. I was just thinking how I love the tone of that guitar yesterday while playing but wishing the high E was louder at the same time!

I think some of the negative comments about construction/UST quality were from folks who may not realize that (assuming it's original) it's a Fishman unit in a late Westerly built guitar.
So flaws in workmanship or the UST itself are low on my list of possibilities.
However construction goofs are possible and I'm inclined to agree with those who mention insufficient compression of the UST due not quite accurately flat saddle slot or even a not quite perfectly flat saddle bottom.
Maybe the high e end of it's just a thousandth too "short", thus not compressing as much as the rest of the saddle?
Which brings to mind, is it the original saddle as far as you know?
One of the reasons Guild used micarta is that it has a very consistent and predictable density.
Especially useful to avoid just that kind of issue with a piezo UST.
Bone can have density variations that a piezo pickup's very sensitive to and that could be yet another reason for the imbalance.
First thing I'd try is Cosmic Arkie's suggestion about a very thin shim at that end of the UST, and when the saddle's out, check that it's even seated properly and hasn't been pulled sideways from under that high e.
 

swiveltung

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The saddle seems to be bone, It has that "hard" feel to it.... at least compared with plastic. But it is compensated saddle.... I dont know if that is original. I will check the flatness next string change
 

Rayk

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I think some of the negative comments about construction/UST quality were from folks who may not realize that (assuming it's original) it's a Fishman unit in a late Westerly built guitar.
So flaws in workmanship or the UST itself are low on my list of possibilities.
However construction goofs are possible and I'm inclined to agree with those who mention insufficient compression of the UST due not quite accurately flat saddle slot or even a not quite perfectly flat saddle bottom.
Maybe the high e end of it's just a thousandth too "short", thus not compressing as much as the rest of the saddle?
Which brings to mind, is it the original saddle as far as you know?
One of the reasons Guild used micarta is that it has a very consistent and predictable density.
Especially useful to avoid just that kind of issue with a piezo UST.
Bone can have density variations that a piezo pickup's very sensitive to and that could be yet another reason for the imbalance.
First thing I'd try is Cosmic Arkie's suggestion about a very thin shim at that end of the UST, and when the saddle's out, check that it's even seated properly and hasn't been pulled sideways from under that high e.

Bah ! Luv ya and hugs but yes UST’s can and will malfunction add mass production into the mix poor quality components a drunk and or hung over worker and blam !

You can test the UST by tap testing it .
Remove the saddle and start poking it with a stick like that Lion in the cage at the fair err ... yeah I mean ... so if the volume changes then you know a section is not transducing correctly . 😁
 

Rayk

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I have many soundhole pickups and had many others. I like them pretty well, but overall a good piezo provides great tone... if you want acoustic tone that is. This is actually one of the few acoustics I have that doesnt have both. But that warm wonderful tone is just great for me. I was just thinking how I love the tone of that guitar yesterday while playing but wishing the high E was louder at the same time!

False , a good pizio reproduces poo poo ! You get the great crystalline enitee’s mating call !

Mics allow the truest reproduction of acoustic tone . Volume is not every thing but mixing is :)

Depending on your needs a hybrid set up mic and UST can give a workable tone by blending the two .

I and I hate to say it because we all have our preferences but I use the mini flex mod two but they have a better set up and there’s other options out there of similar designs .

Here’s a demo vid I did . It’s poorly done but the sound is true not bit colored other then reverb .

 
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With all due respect to other opinions, most modern piezos don't "quack" like they used to, especially if you know how to play, pre-amp and EQ them. I think Fishman does a great job with them, and whatever ones are in the DTAR system work great too! And I have never really found a soundhole mag pickup that I liked tone-wise or string-to-string volume wise. And I don't like putting electric strings on an acoustic. ( However, I did just that with an old J160E I had back in the day!)

So, on to your issue! You can simply replace your UST with a number of good options, if it comes to that.
But, if you're trying to salvage what you have, there are a couple of things you can try first!

As mentioned before, make sure the bottom of the saddle is flat and true. Make sure the slot on the guitar is clean and flat and true.
And make sure the saddle fits snugly in the slot. VERY snugly.

I've had a few string-to-string volume issues with piezos on a few different guitars. Usually one of the E strings is too soft compared to the other 5.

After making sure the saddle is flat and the slot is clean, reinstall the piezo, plug the guitar into an amp, turn it up just enough so you can hear what you are doing, and do the tap test lightly and carefully along the entire length of the piezo strip to make sure it's working correctly. Then install the saddle and string it up, but not to pitch...just enough to hold pressure on the saddle. Then do the tap test again all along the length of the saddle, listening carefully for volume all along the length. If that fixed it, then you're good to go! Tune to pitch and check it out again.

If the volume on one of the strings changes again, loosen the strings a bit...try to rock the saddle back and forth (towards the neck and back towards the pins) in the slot while you're tapping along the length of the saddle. If you can rock it, even slightly, you'll probably hear the volume change as you are tapping. Hold it to where the volume is even and note what you're doing. That's where you'll need some sort of shim on the side of the saddle. Sometimes it's such a small gap, you can only use a small slice of scotch tape or two as a shim. (That's what I had to do on my "new" Gibson SJ200! Works perfectly now!)

Sometimes the sides of the slot or the sides of the saddle will wear ever-so-slightly with playing. Sometimes it's just not quite right even fresh from the factory. Sometimes the pressure of the string at-pitch will accidently hold the saddle in the right position, and then when you change strings or tunings, you all of a sudden develop this issue. (That's how some of them get thru QC) On an acoustic without a piezo, you won't even notice it. If you have a K&K, or a system like Rayk's, you won't ever hear it. But the under-saddle piezo is very sensitive and it needs to be near perfect in the slot and have a near perfect fitting saddle with near perfect pressure along its entire length. It's kinda finicky, but when it's set up correctly, it works! And the more modern Fishman USTs work great, especially when playing at band volume and you don't want feedback!

I hope I described the process adequately. And I hope it sorts out your string-to-string volume problem.
 

fronobulax

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When I wrote software, and managed teams, it was quite common for someone to want to rewrite something because they didn't understand it or it just wasn't done they way they thought it should be. Rarely though, was that the right answer in terms of cost, quality or reliability.

In that spirit I'd like to bring the focus back to the original question, which was an unbalanced volume. While you can certainly solve that by ripping out the factory installed components and replacing them, I think the first approach should be to look at the saddle and the slot as several people have suggested.

I will remind folks that the controls for this system are in a "box" and the box is installed on the guitar, so replacing the transducer will require something to be done about the existing controls. It would bother me to have the controls still there and doing nothing although it would probably bother me more if they were removed and the hole in the side patched.

Piezos on bass do not "quack", they "QUACK". That said the Fishman system on my B4CE was the most versatile on any of my bases when it came to the variety of (good, desirable and different) tones the bass could produce when amplified. That bass is my sister's now, not because of any inadequacy in the electronics but because it did not project as much as needed in a pure acoustic environment. I'd invest my money in tweaking the Fishman and not replacing it.

IMO. YMMV.
 

PittPastor

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Here’s a demo vid I did . It’s poorly done but the sound is true not bit colored other then reverb .
What's that weird guitar you're playing? ;)

But the sound is pretty nice.

My concern with that setup, tho, if I understand it, is that it might give feedback problems when played in a group on a stage... have you ever played in any scenario like that?
 

PittPastor

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With all due respect to other opinions, most modern piezos don't "quack" like they used to, especially if you know how to play, pre-amp and EQ them. I think Fishman does a great job with them, and whatever ones are in the DTAR system work great too! And I have never really found a soundhole mag pickup that I liked tone-wise or string-to-string volume wise.

My issue with soundhole pickups is they freak me out when I fingerpick. It might just be mental, but I think they will get in the way, and therefore, they get in the way.

And the more modern Fishman USTs work great, especially when playing at band volume and you don't want feedback!

Well, my experience has been anything but that -- although I can't vouch for the installation. Maybe it wasn't setup right IDK. However, I noticed in your kit that you have a Fishman Aura -- yeah THAT works. I have that. Makes my Guild sound (sort of) like an Olson. But it doesn't sound (much) like my Guild.

My question for the OP is: Have you tried different strings? I've been amazed at the difference different materials and gauge have made in volume. Maybe another type of string will be easier for the Piezo to pickup? IDK. Just a thought. And strings -- relative to changing out equipment -- are cheap.
 

PittPastor

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When I wrote software, and managed teams, it was quite common for someone to want to rewrite something because they didn't understand it or it just wasn't done they way they thought it should be. Rarely though, was that the right answer in terms of cost, quality or reliability.

Well, that depends. I still write software, and there have been many times I have tried to use legacy code and ended up having to scrap it for a rewrite. So, I'm not sure my experience there has been the same. But mine is application programming not internal IT. I think that would be different. "Not Invented Here" Syndrome costs corporations millions of wasted dollars for sure.

Back to Guitars:

I will remind folks that the controls for this system are in a "box" and the box is installed on the guitar, so replacing the transducer will require something to be done about the existing controls. It would bother me to have the controls still there and doing nothing although it would probably bother me more if they were removed and the hole in the side patched.

This is really something that needs to be considered. Especially if you ever want to sell the guitar. I wouldn't want to have useless controls or needless holes either. If the OP does go for a new setup, he should make sure the luthier can make it work and look right, IMHO.

The other issue is in my experience, you can chase the perfect pickup as long as you can chase the perfect guitar string. Let's face it, if there were one clear better guitar pickup out there, in about five years there would only be one guitar pickup company out there. Much of it is subjective or based on a specific need. And what sounds good in a YouTube review might be awful on your guitar.

When all else fails, there is always the Aura pedal... The bandaid that works.
 

swiveltung

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False , a good pizio reproduces poo poo ! You get the great crystalline enitee’s mating call !

Mics allow the truest reproduction of acoustic tone . Volume is not every thing but mixing is :)

Depending on your needs a hybrid set up mic and UST can give a workable tone by blending the two .

I and I hate to say it because we all have our preferences but I use the mini flex mod two but they have a better set up and there’s other options out there of similar designs .

Here’s a demo vid I did . It’s poorly done but the sound is true not bit colored other then reverb .

To me that sounds good, but a bit muted, hollow and scooped. Definitely not my thing. Even this ( I just pulled quickly off the internet with a one minute look) is Mo Betta for me. But to each his own for sure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFGFawRy9u8
 
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GuildFS4612CE

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http://www.barberatransducers.com/

individual 'saddles'

Good enough for Doyle Dykes and his Guilds

They're passive...use outboard electronics...

leave original onboard preamp/controls untouched, disconnected, for restoration if someone wants to later.

Or get a matching onboard electronics setup.

Your choice.
 
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Rayk

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What's that weird guitar you're playing? ;)

But the sound is pretty nice.

My concern with that setup, tho, if I understand it, is that it might give feedback problems when played in a group on a stage... have you ever played in any scenario like that?

That weird guitar kicks some serious back side ! Lol

No I don’t play in a band but feed back definitely could be a issue . The mics are out of phase to each other I believe to help reduce feed back and Mini flex says a good PA system would lesson that issue . Whatever that means ? Lol

To me that sounds good, but a bit muted, hollow and scooped. Definitely not my thing. Even this ( I just pulled quickly off the internet with a one minute look) is Mo Betta for me. But to each his own for sure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFGFawRy9u8

I never checked the eq spectrum not sure I have that vid anymore to check it out .

I’m not defending anything but it could be YouTube’s audio squashing ?

Anyway their condenser mics so you should hear what the guitar sounds like if you where up close and personal with it.

Other wise the guitar has fantastic tone though leaning a bit to the bass side so I duct taped a flat rock to the top on the low side and it tamed it . 😁

Since you mentioned It I totally forgot that my reverb has a built in Eq , preset to whatever. it’s automatically on when you load it , good chance it was on though I try to turn it off most times as I don’t use the EQ unless I’m multi tracking with different instruments .
 

dapmdave

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http://www.barberatransducers.com/

individual 'saddles'

Good enough for Doyle Dykes and his Guilds

They're passive...use outboard electronics...

leave original onboard preamp/controls untouched, disconnected, for restoration if someone wants to later.

Or get a matching onboard electronics setup.

Your choice.

Well, actually...

Only the Dykes guitars of later production have the Barbera Soloist setup. How to tell which is which? The soloists are dark colored while the earlier ones have a regular (white) saddle over a UST.

The Dykes Guilds do use a custom-made LR Baggs "barn door" preamp. It works very well. I personally prefer either a fully internal system or an external preamp. But if you want a "DD" you take what they got, right?
 

GuildFS4612CE

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Doyle's personal guitars at NAMM had the Barbera w/Baggs onboard pre...the Barbera's are easily recognized on sight.

My either or comment referred to staying fully external...least expensive, keeping guitar mostly original, or going with a custom internal.

The OP was interested in solving the string balance issue inherent with UST's...Barbera does that well and designs them custom for each instrument.

I think we're in agreement on that fact.
 
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