M-85 II Solid Body Tuning Keys Question

katthestar

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Hi, everyone! First time poster, long time lurker.
I got into Guilds after finding a blue X-702 on eBay in February of last year.
I'm a big Sheryl Crow fan, so when I found an M-85 II at Guitar Center, I bought it.
It has been a disaster, and took a few months to get fixed.
Long story short, someone broke the top of the truss rod off, it had to be excavated (again).
There's a neck repair, but the person who did it wasn't a professional, and got glue EVERYWHERE!
I brought the bass to my lesson a while back, and learned that the tuning keys are mixed up.
The solution was going to be to just swap them and make it right.
Well, the headstock has more holes than swiss cheese, and so we just restrung it the "wrong" way so I can tune it the same as my other basses.
Since the tuning keys have glue all over, I want to replace them and have the headstock holes filled in a bit after the keys are replaced.
The problem is, I've noticed 2 types of tuning keys on M-85's.
Mine is a 1973 mahogany solid body and has the dog eared tuners.
I thought I could find the answer in Hans' book, only to find the pictures in there show Schaller closed tuners like on my X-702.
Which tuners are the original ones for a '73?
I like the look of the dog eared ones the best, but even then there are two choices.
Schaller and Grover both make vintage style dog eared tuners, and I'm not sure which one of them made the dog eared tuners on the M-85.
I have no real brand preference, I'm more looking to make it somewhat historically accurate, sans wood glue.
Also, if any of you know how to get wood glue off of tuners, I'd consider that, too.
I will try to oblige with pictures, but the ones like mine are the only ones that consistently show up for sale, for some reason, so you've likely seen a bass that looks just like mine.
Except without all the wood glue.
Thanks for any advice you can provide.
-Kate
 

The Guilds of Grot

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Hey Kate! Welcome to LTG!

Here's my 1973 M-85:

rt112.jpg


It has the same tuners as my 1970 Hollow M-85

100_6525.jpg


And my 1970 Semi-Solid M-85-II

rt124.jpg


As does my JS-I (I forget what year this is!)

100_6591.jpg


100_6597.jpg


My 1974 JS-IIC has different tuners:

100_6501.jpg


I hope this helps!
 

fronobulax

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mavuser

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Hello Kate and welcome. the tuners currently on your bass are likley original.

this set has been on ebay for a while, no idea if they are a match to your bass (no affiliation, etc)- https://m.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Unbranded-Bass-Tuners-4-string-2-2-set-/173278113345

Also a fan of Crow myself. she sings on Aaron Lee Tasjan's new album which u may want to check out.

the bass on "All I wanna do" is crazy- that is the whole hook of the song. So, I can see why she wanted a similar bass for herself. Dan Schwartz is Mgod on this forum.
 

hieronymous

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hi Kate, sorry to hear that your first M-85 is so problematic. I have a very early solid body version - maybe '71? The tuner posts are bigger than the ones posted earlier in this thread (though I don't actually know for a fact that they are originals):

39372958215_4269eb07dc.jpg


I had a question about the tuning pegs on yours - what does it mean that they are "backwards"? Is it that they turn opposite than expected to tighten or loosen the strings? Because some basses are like that - I've had Fenders like that, and I think I had a bass with 2+2 tuners like that as well. But maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem you are having. Whatever it is, best of luck with the bass!
 

mellowgerman

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hi Kate, sorry to hear that your first M-85 is so problematic. I have a very early solid body version - maybe '71? The tuner posts are bigger than the ones posted earlier in this thread (though I don't actually know for a fact that they are originals):

39372958215_4269eb07dc.jpg


I had a question about the tuning pegs on yours - what does it mean that they are "backwards"? Is it that they turn opposite than expected to tighten or loosen the strings? Because some basses are like that - I've had Fenders like that, and I think I had a bass with 2+2 tuners like that as well. But maybe I'm misunderstanding the problem you are having. Whatever it is, best of luck with the bass!

I've never seen a vintage guild with wide tuning pegs like that. If non-original, they look like they were mounted evenly and with care.
As for the reverse-turning tuners, my 1966, 1968, and 1970 all had/have them
 

Nuuska

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Hello from Finland

Welcome to forum.

To remove wood glue I would take the tuners off - dismantle them ( if possible ) - carefully scrape the biggest lumps off - then put everything in boiling water - if there is any glue left after that I would try to clean it off with some solvent and rag. Finally assemble the tuners and add grease.
 

mavuser

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I've never seen a vintage guild with wide tuning pegs like that. If non-original, they look like they were mounted evenly and with care.

those are original mid-70s im pretty sure. they are also the reason we see so many upside down trc's (it doesnt fit the right way with those tuners...)
 

fronobulax

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Just to muddy the waters a bit, the Starfire bass got a bigger headstock circa 1970. I don't know if the dimensions of the tuners remained the same or not but that may be a factor. I need to remind myself that generalizing from a Starfire to a M-85 usually does not work as well as I would like. We also know that Guild often used available parts without regard to catalog specs although I would not expect that in '73 for a model that had been around since '71.

Kate - we'd love pictures, including the X-702. Short answer is host them somewhere else and link to them here. we can give you the long answer if you need it ;-)
 

katthestar

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Hello! What I meant by the tuners being backward is that they do indeed turn the opposite way. I asked my luthier because I basically wanted to know the brand of tuners to buy to replace them. Grover and Schaller both make vintage style tuners, but I wasn't sure who made the unbranded ones on my bass. It turns out the tuners are covered in lacquer from a sloppy headstock repair job. He did tell me they were Grovers, but also told me not to replace them because they're the tuners that go with the bass. I had to bring it down yesterday so he could put the strings on the proper way, he advised me that putting them backwards put tension on the nut. He took pictures of it when he redid it last summer, it still looks the same. He pointed out that the original tuners taper at the bottom, but I noticed the vintage style Grovers do as well. I might buy the vintage style new Grovers at some point and ask him to put them on, but I don't think he will. I also had to give him my Gibson ES-137, which is somehow in worse shape than this M-85 ever was. Thank you all for your suggestions! I might try to take them off and clean the tuners, but I'm afraid to do much to this bass because if the truss rod breaks again, it's kind of all over.
 

katthestar

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Here are some pictures. The M-85 pictures were taken after it was repaired at the shop. The X-702 pictures are from when I first got it, though it looks the same now. I think it has DR Legends on it and it sounds very dull but thumpy, which I love. The M-85 I think has Rotosounds, though they're the strings it came from Guitar Center with, so I have no idea.
M-85.jpg

M-85_Headstock.jpg

IMG_1482.jpg
 

fronobulax

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"sounds very dull but thumpy" - Your comments on the M85 would be of interest. People sometimes use that description about the Guild humbuckers. Roundwounds do make a difference. I found I stopped complaining (as much) about my JS II with humbuckers when the pair of Rotosounds that I have been moving from bass to bass since the late 1970's ended up on, and stayed, on the JS II.

If you just showed me the photo of the M85 headstock I'd say the tuners were period correct and the strings were loaded properly. But without getting a bass in my hands I'm not sure which way I would expect to turn things when (for example) raising pitch.

I really like that color/pickguard combo on the X-702. When you need your next Guild bass I'm sure we have some advice.

We could also advise you on complimentary guitars.

Bluesbirds.jpg


Sparkle.jpg


Sets owned by LTG member guildsofgrot.
 

hieronymous

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Hello! What I meant by the tuners being backward is that they do indeed turn the opposite way.

Yeah, that's totally normal and not a problem.

I had to bring it down yesterday so he could put the strings on the proper way, he advised me that putting them backwards put tension on the nut. He took pictures of it when he redid it last summer, it still looks the same.

I have a feeling it was strung so that the strings were on the "outside" of the tuner rather than inside - that can put stress on the nut since they don't pull straight.

Here are some pictures. The M-85 pictures were taken after it was repaired at the shop. The X-702 pictures are from when I first got it, though it looks the same now. I think it has DR Legends on it and it sounds very dull but thumpy, which I love. The M-85 I think has Rotosounds, though they're the strings it came from Guitar Center with, so I have no idea.
M-85.jpg

M-85_Headstock.jpg

IMG_1482.jpg

Wow, that M-85 is beautiful! Too bad it has so many issues. I take it this is the headstock strung correctly? No problem with the way it's strung in this pic.

I would expect the M-85 to have flats (like the DR Legends) and the X-702 to have rounds! Dull & thumpy can be good through the right amp and with the right music! That's how I use my M-85.

If the bass can get sorted out and is playable and usable then maybe keep it that way until a suitable replacement set of tuners shows up?
 

mellowgerman

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those are original mid-70s im pretty sure. they are also the reason we see so many upside down trc's (it doesnt fit the right way with those tuners...)

Interesting and that makes sense! I suppose I've obsessed too much over the 60's basses with bisonics to have picked up on that aspect of the 70's models. Either way, great to learn new things about my favorite family of instruments! Probably why i spend more time on LTG than any other website

Also, cool Guilds, Kat! I got to play an x-702 once. Crazy body style for sure. Overall I thought it sounded great, but it was not very well taken care of and it was difficult to tell whether or not it's neck issues could have been corrected with a standard set-up or if it would need extra luthier attention.
As for M-85's I have handled and enjoyed a few but have yet to add one to the collection
 
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katthestar

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The M-85 is all straightened out. That drama was last summer. It cost me $450, but the bass is now solid. I've never had an issue with the X-702. There's also this Starfire II I got last year, it has Dark Stars and is a factory second, according to my luthier. It also has his friend's hand prints on it. Apparently, before it went through the finishing process a second time, his friend put his hands on it, which reacted with the chemicals that were already there. This caused the white markings you see. I didn't really notice it until he brought it up. His friend passed away quite a while ago, so I joke that my Starfire is haunted. I was going to put the kind of tuners it has on my M-85. I've decided to leave the M-85 the way it is for now. I have a Gibson that is being refinished and I need to save up money to pay for it when it's done. I also got a Starfire III because I was so distraught about my Gibson ES-137C. Also, the the Starfire III sounds so beautiful. I'll post a picture in the Hollowbody thread at some point.
IMG_1684.jpg

IMG_1778.jpg
 

fronobulax

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What a great story. My initial thought is that the bridge makes this a 1990's+ Starfire II. That means your luthier's friend worked in Westerly, Rhode Island or did the refinish mishap happen outside of the factory?
 

katthestar

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My Starfire II is from 1992, I think. My luthier’s friend did work in Westerly. I’m from and live in Rhode Island, which is why I was fascinated by Guilds. I actually go to Westerly to get them fixed, that’s where my luthier is.
The M-85 sounds really bass heavy. I wouldn’t want to put flats on it because I worry it will sound muddy. The X-702 was strung with flatwounds when I got it, so I just left them on. I’m tempted to have a bass made that feels the same with different looks, just so I get the sound and feel without the metal head looks.
 

adorshki

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There's also this Starfire II I got last year, it has Dark Stars and is a factory second, according to my luthier. It also has his friend's hand prints on it. Apparently, before it went through the finishing process a second time, his friend put his hands on it, which reacted with the chemicals that were already there. This caused the white markings you see. I didn't really notice it until he brought it up. His friend passed away quite a while ago, so I joke that my Starfire is haunted.

What a great story. My initial thought is that the bridge makes this a 1990's+ Starfire II. That means your luthier's friend worked in Westerly, Rhode Island or did the refinish mishap happen outside of the factory?

Apologies for the "buttinski":
I'm getting the "refinish" comment applied to the Gibson, but the Starfire Bass's neck was contaminated by hand oils between coats during the original finishing process, that's why it was a second.
I think that's what was meant by "through the finishing process a second time".
Kat?
(PS, welcome aboard!)
 
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katthestar

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Yeah, I’m probably not remembering what he said correctly, but I think something went wrong during the finishing process, the guy grabbed it bare handed, and the finishing was completed. I don’t think he would’ve touched it under normal circumstances.
 

fronobulax

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I’m tempted to have a bass made that feels the same with different looks, just so I get the sound and feel without the metal head looks.

img_20160411_154400284_hdr.jpg


img_20160411_154427222_hdr.jpg


My Betts Bass, somewhat inspired by a Guild Pilot, with a Novak BSDS. I can put you in touch if you want :)
 
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