FGD Need help!

Dondoh

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Well it is my First Guild Day.
I've been wanting a Guild since I was 11. My first and really only guitar teacher had one. He recommended I get a 12 string one day. I may be slower than most because it has taken 46 years....
I just picked this up from the guitar center. It was shipped to me from Colorado.
I tuned it up.
In a word? Glorious.
I think it needs to be properly hydrated as it came from Colorado, so I plan to put a couple of Oasis humifiers in the case for a week or so and see what happens.
It is in remarkable shape considering the description. There are a couple of problem areas and I'd love it if you could diagnose some more. I have a month to try it out and I can return it if need be. But it is looking good out of the box. At least to me.

I'd love to mine the collected wisdom here.

It appears to be a 2000 or 2001 JF55-12 but the label says J55-12. Handwritten, so it is probably an error. Is it OK and safe to post serial numbers here?

Lots of pictures with descriptions.
I haven't cleaned it up or adjusted anything. This is it right out of the case.




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Dondoh

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Problem areas... that I see.
There has been an inelegant repair of the binding up near the 12th fret. Enjoy the side dots made of pure magic marker?



IpHkoGO.jpg



THere is some separation of the fretboard/binding. What is this? Is it terrible? Somebody did something here. What did they do?




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A few "bubbles in the finish around the tuners...



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Dondoh

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The action needs to come down but there is plenty of of saddle. I'll see where it is after hydrating.



4oNFEq6.jpg






The bowl topography of the back.



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Neck Joint pictures. Do they tell a story?



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Is this a guild case? It fits like a glove, but doesn't say Guild anywhere. Burgundy interior.




UywHnWK.jpg





HP5lu3K.jpg
 
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twocorgis

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The neck looks like it may have been worked on.
Perhaps a neck reset?

Possibly, but if it has, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Other than that, the guitar looks like a beauty Dondoh. I know my F512 ain't going anywhere! As for the serial number, I think it's safe to post here, but if you send an email to Hans Moust at guitarchives@wxs.nl, he'll give you the model year and any other info he has on the guitar. Enjoy it!
 

Dondoh

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The neck looks like it may have been worked on.
Perhaps a neck reset?
The separation is mostly where the fretboard meets either the neck or the body. But it looks worse in the pictures than in real life. Someone repaired the binding from fret 9 to fret 12. It isn't the best work I've ever seen... But I aim to play this thing so a few cosmetic wrinkles don't worry me. I'm more worried about the underlying structure anyway.
If it has had a reset, that is fine news by me. It feels solid as a rock!
I'm pretty excited but I'd love to hear reasons I shouldn't keep it, or estimates of what work will need to be done from folks here, like you, who know. Love the encouragement/enabling too!
Thanks for the help!
 
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Dondoh

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Possibly, but if it has, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Other than that, the guitar looks like a beauty Dondoh. I know my F512 ain't going anywhere! As for the serial number, I think it's safe to post here, but if you send an email to Hans Moust at guitarchives@wxs.nl, he'll give you the model year and any other info he has on the guitar. Enjoy it!


Thanks TwoCorgis! I'm surprised at the condition. Better than described by GC. I once tried to buy a Martin D12-20 from a distant GC which told me it had a few superficial surface scratches, but otherwise great. I asked for pics. It had been crushed at the lower bout....
So it is great to get a conservative and accurate description of condition.
It really sounds spectacular.

I'd love to know what strings are on it. Anyone know strings with red silk wrapping for the tuning posts?
 

Dondoh

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(The previous post sounds like I buy a lot of guitars. This is misleading. I'm very inexperienced in buying guitars. I've played 47 years. Today's purchase of this JF55-12 is my third in my life. I've had a few given to me though)
 

adorshki

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Well it is my First Guild Day.
Congrats!
Forgive me for jumping right to business:
It appears to be a 2000 or 2001 JF55-12 but the label says J55-12. Handwritten, so it is probably an error. Is it OK and safe to post serial numbers here?
I got a sneaking suspicion it's actually gonna be from very late '80'sor early '90's, maybe even around '93-'94 when they went to "AJ55" s/n prefixes for the 6's and "AJ52" for the 12-ers.
Another thing that makes me think that is that labeling errors were much more common then, although most common in mid-to late '80's.
To be fair there was a lot of model-number juggling during that time and sure enough the JF55 was one of those most affected in the transition from the "F50R/F512" nomenclature.
Guild's official list is known to have "glitches", but it might confirm or correct your guess while waiting for Hans's verdict.:
http://guildguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/history_of_your_guild.pdf
Like Sandy said Hans is best source although it's safe to post s/n's here, BUT: I'll bet there's a date stamp visible on the heel block, maybe on one of the beveled edges, so it can be easy to miss unless you look through the soundhole at just the right angle.
Be aware that's just the date the "superstructure' was completed. Typically the guitar itself wasn't completely finished for an where from a couple of weeks to a couple of months after that.
And they dropped the date stamp in '99s or even later, just can't remember for sure at the moment.
I haven't cleaned it up or adjusted anything. This is it right out of the case.
The oxidation on the tuning pegs is another thing that makes me suspect older than '00 or '01.
The case does look like a real TKL construction (Guild's OEM maker, and that yellow stitching is very familiar), and the pull tab for the "glovebox" cover is stamped TKL on my Westerly cases, so that'll be a good clue.
The Guild logo was silk-screened on the case in gold ink. On a high-ender like that it would have been the roof-top logo over a G-shield somewhere on the treble side of the lower bout.
It may well have been eradicated from wear over the years, not sure if it's actually easily removed (I'm more concerned with preserving it on mine, LOL!).
Those 12-ers are pretty hard to fit correctly (headstock length) so even if it's not a factory original, if it's an actual TKL that's as close as you're likely to easily get these days.
Cracking around the heel?
Again like Sandy said, a reset's not necessarily a bad thing, but it could simply be a result of finish shrinkage over the years. I think we saw another example of that recently on another member's vintage 12-er.
Apologies I can't remember who it was or if that was actually confirmed, but it looks too "clean" to be the cut needed during a neck removal.
Could be an explanation for the separation at the fretboard binding, too.
The binding cracks could have happened during a re-fret. Can't see too much but the frets look exceptionally clean. On the other hand they also look like Guild's typical immaculate finishing along the edges.
Overall my initial gut reaction to a not-too critical look-over of the pics is that it appears to be in pretty darn good shape for what I suspect is actually a plus-20-year-old guitar.

Did somebody mention taking it in to a reputable shop for an assessment yet? (don't recall if you've mentioned already having a "favorite guy")
Assuming a good bill of health from them and a genuine love of the sound on your part, then price is probably justified..... (I know you didn't mention it, and that's entirely up to you)
:friendly_wink:
 
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adorshki

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A few "bubbles in the finish around the tuners...
Forgot about that one, result of pressure of the tuning peg bezels on the finish.
"No Big Deal" especially for a "player".
PS I think I'm recalling a report that the abalone rosette didn't come in until '94....at least on JF65-12's
 

davismanLV

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You can see breaks in the fretboard binding. But that doesn't mean a repair. The bottom (treble side) of my D65S has 3 cracks in the binding from moving from a more humid climate to an extremely dry one. And when that happens the lacquer (the yellowish part) chips off when that happens. It just means maybe it's been dry and the wood has shrunk and expanded and not at the same rate as the binding. I wouldn't worry about that unless you paid a premium price for the guitar. That type of neck chipping near the binding supports that story. Whether it had a reset or not, you're good to take the saddle down a bit. Remember, it might not seem like much, but the amount you want to lower the action at the 12th fret, you have to take TWICE that from the bottom of the saddle!! Keep that in mind. It's a general guideline.

It looks like a super nice guitar!! Congratulations, my friend!! :encouragement:
 

Rayk

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You can see breaks in the fretboard binding. But that doesn't mean a repair. The bottom (treble side) of my D65S has 3 cracks in the binding from moving from a more humid climate to an extremely dry one. And when that happens the lacquer (the yellowish part) chips off when that happens. It just means maybe it's been dry and the wood has shrunk and expanded and not at the same rate as the binding. I wouldn't worry about that unless you paid a premium price for the guitar. That type of neck chipping near the binding supports that story. Whether it had a reset or not, you're good to take the saddle down a bit. Remember, it might not seem like much, but the amount you want to lower the action at the 12th fret, you have to take TWICE that from the bottom of the saddle!! Keep that in mind. It's a general guideline.

It looks like a super nice guitar!! Congratulations, my friend!! :encouragement:

I Agee with Tom . I’m leaning to no neck reset .
Ebony is susceptible to humidity changes possibly more so then the Rosewood and Sitka top and Hog neck.
It’s most likely what’s caused the chipping and cracking of the binding .
The binding is bright white under the NCL so when it chips or flakes that whiteness is revealed.
Unfortunately it reveals more the bindings height along with any gap filler along the seam between fingerboard and neck .
Those flakes also take some of the stained NCL on the neck off which helps even up the seem between the two .
Now don’t ask me what came first the chicken or the egg meaning how the two were finished off in what order .
You can refer to my D55 binding repair to compare .

Just another take on the reset , if I had it done and the fingerboard had the chipping issue then , it would have optimal to repair that while it was off the guitar.

One thing you can do is run your finger along all the binding on the guitar to see if you can feel the joint lines that will give more idea of dryness .

Looks like a sweet guitar enjoy ;)
 

fronobulax

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There is no policy for or against posting serial numbers.

In Ye Olden Days, when brontosaurus hide was used instead of Tolex, there were stories about stolen goods that were recovered and returned to someone other than the rightful owner. The scheme depended upon a non-owner filing a police report of stolen goods that included a serial number. If you believe that was possible or if you are just conservative enough to make sure it can never happen, you are paranoid about sharing serial numbers. Those were also the days when police departments encouraged people to engrave social security numbers on high value goods and even loaned engraving tools.
 

adorshki

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Ebony is susceptible to humidity changes possibly more so then the Rosewood and Sitka top and Hog neck.
It’s most likely what’s caused the chipping and cracking of the binding .
Good point and I was going to say I suspect the 'hog and sika are actually more susceptible (less dense, more permeable) when I realized the neck is actually pretty well sealed up, so the fretboard might well be the most likely candidate to have shrunk due to low humidity, and one of the side-effects of that is that the frets start to protrude from the edges.
Oila: cracked binding.
Also, if binding glued to fretboard shrinks away from edge of neck: cracking of finish.

Those flakes also take some of the stained NCL on the neck off which helps even up the seem between the two .
Now don’t ask me what came first the chicken or the egg meaning how the two were finished off in what order.
Neck with binding installed is mounted, entire guitar is finished later.

One thing you can do is run your finger along all the binding on the guitar to see if you can feel the joint lines that will give more idea of dryness.
Not sure if this is what you're getting at but if normal finish shrinkage has occurred there's going to be cracking along at least some mating surfaces no matter what.
Which is what I think is actually going on at the neck joint.
If 2 different woods in the construction humidify or dry out at different rates then I could see uneven mating surfaces occurring, but it doesn't happen during original construction going by any of my 3.
Which still all have seamless mating surfaces here in humidity-friendly SF Bay area, although the D25 is showing the beginnings of the neck joint cracking.
:friendly_wink:
 
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Rayk

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I thing if the humidity was really low for a while that you could feel the binding both protruding out from the sides along with separation from the seems .

The F40 I had returned was that way and it was over the intire guitar . Ironically there was no NCL flaking or chipping .

I still have a lot to learn about with NCL guitars 😁
 
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I would measure the bridge height , as well. I’m not talking about the saddle, but the actual bridge, and then compare it with someone who owns one in pristine condition. An old pre-neck reset fix was to shave the bridge down and install a new saddle.
 

adorshki

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I would measure the bridge height , as well. I’m not talking about the saddle, but the actual bridge, and then compare it with someone who owns one in pristine condition. An old pre-neck reset fix was to shave the bridge down and install a new saddle.
That's a good point, except that you don't really need to install a new saddle, you just lower the one you have.
The reason to shave the bridge was to give a lower profile for the saddle to still have enough height for good break angle of the strings over it after shaving it down.. It compensates for the loss of break angle created by lowering the saddle too much.
Lowering that saddle height enough to lower action significantly also means probable need to deepen the saddle slot which can leave it too weak to resist cracking stress along the slot.
Anyway it's hard to "fake" good combined height when it's shaved, because net result will still be action that's too high.
At first casual glance the bridge height looked ok to me, but it could be distorted by camera angle.
And it does look a wee tiny bit flat right in front of saddle where I'm used to seeing an arc that matches the saddle's profile on my 6-ers.
And for Dondoh's insight, that arc is intended to match the fretboard radius, which, now that I think about it, HAS been flatter for Guild 12's at least once in their history (the F212, again, Ralph Towner's first one).
Combined height of saddle and bridge is ideally at 1/2" +/- maybe up to 1/16th.
It depends on the original neck angle and the bridge blank used to match it.
And ideally bridge height should be around 9/32 to 5/16 of that 1/2 inch. So if it's there I'm sure it's fine.
Another factor to bear in mind is that Hans recently mentioned that 12ers of a certain era (actually '70's F212 IIRC) tended to have "thin" bridges, so I hesitate to make any assumptions about ideal height for 12's..
They may not follow the rules I'm used to thinking of for 6's.




I thing if the humidity was really low for a while that you could feel the binding both protruding out from the sides along with separation from the seems .

The F40 I had returned was that way and it was over the intire guitar . Ironically there was no NCL flaking or chipping .

I don't remember the vintage of that piece, how old was it?
The issue being, I seem to recall somebody mentioning in my "finishes" thread that newer formulations of NCL (say, since the '90's) contain more plasticizers, making 'em less prone to cracking, more "stretchy".
But ultimately NCL simply continues to lose its solvent gasses over its lifetime, that's why it literally shrinks and gets more brittle.
But that's also thought to be a source of improved tone on a top in particular.
 
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Rayk

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That's a good point, except that you don't really need to install a new saddle, you just lower the one you have.
The reason to shave the bridge was to give a lower profile for the saddle to still have enough height for good break angle of the strings over it after shaving it down.. It compensates for the loss of break angle created by lowering the saddle too much.
Lowering that saddle height enough to lower action significantly also means probable need to deepen the saddle slot which can leave it too weak to resist cracking stress along the slot.
Anyway it's hard to "fake" good combined height when it's shaved, because net result will still be action that's too high.
At first casual glance the bridge height looked ok to me, but it could be distorted by camera angle.
And it does look a wee tiny bit flat right in front of saddle where I'm used to seeing an arc that matches the saddle's profile on my 6-ers.
And for Dondoh's insight, that arc is intended to match the fretboard radius, which, now that I think about it, HAS been flatter for Guild 12's at least once in their history (the F212, again, Ralph Towner's first one).
Combined height of saddle and bridge is ideally at 1/2" +/- maybe up to 1/16th.
It depends on the original neck angle and the bridge blank used to match it.
And ideally bridge height should be around 9/32 to 5/16 that 1/2 inch. So if it's there I'm sure it's fine.
Another factor to bear in mind is that Hans recently mentioned that 12ers of a certain era (actually '70's F212 IIRC) tended to have "thin" bridges, so I hesitate to make any assumptions about ideal height for 12's..
They may not follow the rules I'm used to thinking of for 6's.






I don't remember the vintage of that piece, how old was it?
The issue being, I seem to recall somebody mentioning in my "finishes" thread that newer formulations of NCL (say, since the '90's) contain more plasticizers, making 'em less prone to cracking, more "stretchy".
But ultimately NCL simply continues to lose its solvent gasses over its lifetime, that's why it literally shrinks and gets more brittle.
But that's also thought to be a source of improved tone on a top in particular.

Ben uses some type of NCL that is resistant to cracking or checking just not sure what it is .

The F40 was tocoma I believe , I posted a thread about it . Probably used some stupid title so no one knows what the heck I’m talking about lol not that would anyway .

It was a pretty sunburst and it sounded like a turd .
 

Charlie Bernstein

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A Guild twelve? You're following in the giant footsteps of the immortal Long John Baldry. Do it justice!

Recommendation: If it's fun to play and nothing bothers you when you play it, then it's fine as-is, no matter what the pros say. Luthiers are a notoriously fussy breed.
 
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