String change from Light to Medium

Rich Cohen

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Setup wise, what should I expect changing light strings to mediums on a jumbo...simply tweaking the truss rod if the string height changes at the 12th fret?
Rich
 

adorshki

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Setup wise, what should I expect changing light strings to mediums on a jumbo...simply tweaking the truss rod if the string height changes at the 12th fret?
Rich

Yeah that's probably gonna be needed.
Which guitar is it, do you know if it was originally intended for mediums? (NH's were)
Reason for asking is because if it was intended and set up for lights, you may wind up tweaking the truss to completely flat (potentially causing some buzzing) without achieving the height you like at the 12th fret, so.... :
Depending on your finger strength and how finicky you are about action, you might even want to lower the saddle a wee bit, and possibly even deepen the nut slots.
It's surprising how much effect they have on "feel", especially when you up the tension to mediums from lights.
BUT if it was originally intended for mediums they're probably already at a good depth.
Should I go into the lecture about the issue that going to mediums on a top intended for lights can actually be counter-productive?
Tops are designed with a certain amount of "preload" in mind according to the gauge the guitar's designed for.
If the tops gets too much "preload" it's actually choked off and can't vibrate as well as when it's got the right strings.
In theory.
And any given individual guitar's mileage may vary.
And besides the issue of the increased stress on the neck joint increasing likelihood of need for reset.
And full disclosure:
I recently started keeping my D25 and F65ce tuned a full step down and LOVE what happened to the sustain....at the expense of a slight amount tuning stability..but I'd be much less worried about using mediums tuned down, on a guitar designed for lights...

:friendly_wink:
 

Rich Cohen

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Yeah that's probably gonna be needed.
Which guitar is it, do you know if it was originally intended for mediums? (NH's were)
Reason for asking is because if it was intended and set up for lights, you may wind up tweaking the truss to completely flat (potentially causing some buzzing) without achieving the height you like at the 12th fret, so.... :
Depending on your finger strength and how finicky you are about action, you might even want to lower the saddle a wee bit, and possibly even deepen the nut slots.
It's surprising how much effect they have on "feel", especially when you up the tension to mediums from lights.
BUT if it was originally intended for mediums they're probably already at a good depth.
Should I go into the lecture about the issue that going to mediums on a top intended for lights can actually be counter-productive?
Tops are designed with a certain amount of "preload" in mind according to the gauge the guitar's designed for.
If the tops gets too much "preload" it's actually choked off and can't vibrate as well as when it's got the right strings.
In theory.
And any given individual guitar's mileage may vary.
And besides the issue of the increased stress on the neck joint increasing likelihood of need for reset.
And full disclosure:
I recently started keeping my D25 and F65ce tuned a full step down and LOVE what happened to the sustain....at the expense of a slight amount tuning stability..but I'd be much less worried about using mediums tuned down, on a guitar designed for lights...

:friendly_wink:

Great, Adorshki, thanks for the opinion. Actually I have three Guilds that I recently acquired that came with Elixir lights. A Westerly G-41, you know, the massive dred, a Westerly JF-100NT CRV and an NH Orhpeum 12 fret dred. From your response, it sounds as if I could switch all of them to D'Addario mediums like EJ-24 or EJ-17 or EJ-19. Right?
Rich
 

GuildFS4612CE

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While I'm not sure why you want to, unless you want to tune down like Al, remember that the nut slots would have been filed to match the original recommended string gauges...if not medium, then you may have to do some work on the nut to accommodate the larger gauges...or take the guitars into a tech for a new set up to match the new strings...good luck.
 

dreadnut

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Should be no problem switching to mediums; that is probably what it came with originally. I run EJ-19's on my dreads at standard tuning. They project considerably more volume and sustain than lights.
 

adorshki

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Great, Adorshki, thanks for the opinion. Actually I have three Guilds that I recently acquired that came with Elixir lights. A Westerly G-41, you know, the massive dred, a Westerly JF-100NT CRV and an NH Orhpeum 12 fret dred. From your response, it sounds as if I could switch all of them to D'Addario mediums like EJ-24 or EJ-17 or EJ-19. Right?
Rich

Pretty sure the G41 came with mediums (due to scale length and top size and build period, they were going towards "built like a tank" by '73), but I'm guessing the JF 100 probably actually shipped with lights.
It's from a period when they were lightening up builds again, and by '96 at least, only 2 gauge sets were used: lights on all the dreads and F-bodies, and extra lights on F-bodied ce's like my F65ce (and light 12-string sets).
In fact that continued through Tacoma, if the spec sheets can be trusted.
Are those TX's guitars?
Sounds like a familiar batch of instruments, and I remember his mentioning that he actually went light on some of his guitars that could handle medium simply for playing comfort.
Even if it isn't his, he might know better about what the JF100 came with, since he actually has (had?) one.
Jane's input about the slots might yield a clue, too, but it doesn't rule out that the nut slots on the G41 might have already been re-shaped over time.
Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if Orpheums shipped with mediums, either....ah, sure enough, M450's (D'A Exp-17 coated or EJ-17 as you mention if you don't like coateds) like the regular production NH dreads and 16 &17" jumbos:
http://guildguitars.com/g/12-fret-slope-shoulder/
 

Rich Cohen

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Adorshki, they are from TX, so guess I can assume they were built for mediums. Still, after affixing the strings I should check the string heights and fiddle with the truss rod, no?
 

adorshki

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Adorshki, they are from TX, so guess I can assume they were built for mediums. Still, after affixing the strings I should check the string heights and fiddle with the truss rod, no?

I still wouldn't make that assumption about the JF100, surprising as that might seem.
But the Orpheum absolutely came with mediums so shouldn't need anything more than checking action height and adjusting truss if needed, assuming saddle hasn't been lowered. (I'm guessing that one probably will need to be tightened (flattened) a little, against the new higher tension.
GF41 I'm about 99% certain was built for mediums as well, but if it was mine I'd ask Hans to be sure, because I'd be thinking about prolonging neckset as long as possible, especially on piece that old.
JF100 I'd probably ask Hans too, again for the reason of preserving neckset on such a rare and high-end piece.
With a carved heel further complicating the issue to boot.... :biggrin-new:
If I was planning on tuning down a whole step I wouldn't worry about the tension anymore, though.
 

Rich Cohen

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Adorshki, many thanks for your continued thoughts. I should add that my JF-100NT CRV has the original micarta nut and saddle. There is good saddle height left. The G-41 has a fairly recent bone nut and saddle (compensated).
Rich
 

adorshki

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Adorshki, many thanks for your continued thoughts.
:friendly_wink:
I should add that my JF-100NT CRV has the original micarta nut and saddle.
Right there you should be able to tell if the nut's slotted for an .053 or an .056. E string.
If an .056 sticks up a bit proud of the slot or is simply too wide to seat that'd be the indicator for me.
Or conversely, if the current strings sit exactly as they should (easiest to tell with the wounds).
I'd be curious to know myself.
There is good saddle height left.
Rich
Sounds good.
All 3 of mine (2 late Westerlys and a Corona) came out of the box with exactly the factory set-up spec, 5.5-6/64ths on bass E and 4.5-5/64th on treble, and plenty of saddle for lowering for those who so desire.
 

Rich Cohen

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Here's a pic of the JF-100NT CRV micarta (original) nut.

YNhlcp6.jpg
 

adorshki

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I'll take a pic of the JF-100 nut and post it.
Rich

Looks like slotted for lights to me.
When I can take my eyes off the top of that genuine abalone cloud-style inlay.
Might as well say it before somebody else does...."(more) pics or it didn't happen!"
:glee:
 

davismanLV

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I put mediums on my D65S this last time just for giggles and grins. It seems to handle it fine. They won't be on there that long. I notice very little change in volume or tone, so why bother with the extra tension for so little gain? But I've got so many guitars in the queue for strings changes, it'll be a while before it goes back. That guitar of mine has fairly low action anyway so I didn't notice a lot of difference. No adjustments here. I put most of my guitars in alternative and lowered tunings and then rotate them back to standard so I get a lot of variety and I just adjust my playing vs. the guitar. But that's just me, Rich.......
 

richardp69

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Certainly no expert here but I will say I think there is a noticeable difference in both volume and tone with Medium vs. Light gauge strings. Lights have their place on 12 strings and small bodied guitars but for me at least all of my Dreads and Jumbos (non 12 string) will always have Medium gauge strings.
 

Rich Cohen

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Certainly no expert here but I will say I think there is a noticeable difference in both volume and tone with Medium vs. Light gauge strings. Lights have their place on 12 strings and small bodied guitars but for me at least all of my Dreads and Jumbos (non 12 string) will always have Medium gauge strings.

Rich, does your JF-100NT CRV still have its micarta nut?
 

FNG

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Rich,
What are you looking for with the change to mediums?

I've run mediums in the past but now just stick with whatever the builder recommends.

If you're looking to improve the tone on your JF100, you might consider a new nut and saddle.
 
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Rich Cohen

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FNG, I'm looking for more bass. Also, I'm used to playing on mediums. Lights feel too thin for my large fingers. I'm still not convinced that the micarta nut on my JF-100 wasn't designed for medium strings. If you look at the way the lights are sitting in the groove, there's plenty of room on the sides of the strings. The 1 -3 strings completely disappear into the groove, no?
 
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adorshki

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FNG, I'm looking for more bass. Also, I'm used to playing on mediums. Lights feel too thin for my large fingers. I'm still not convinced that the micarta nut on my JF-100 wasn't designed for medium strings. If you look at the way the lights are sitting in the groove, there's plenty of room on the sides of the strings. The 1 -3 strings completely disappear into the groove, no?
I was primarily going by the slot widths especially the wound ones just because that's where I'd expect the difference to be most visible.
As for the unwounds "disappearing" into the groove, that could be simply an artifact of the slots being deep enough to give good "action height" at the nut end.
Just like a saddle, "start tall and lower as needed".
(There's a tutorial around here about capoing the strings down at 2nd fret (?), I think, and checking for clearance with a feeler gauge? Heck it's probably on Frets.com for that matter)
From my 3 and other vaguely remembered reports, late Westerlys came out extremely well set-up.
B-u-u-u-t:
It's still hard to judge the actual depths from that angle, or even if they really are wide enough to take mediums
I'll trust your eyes on the scene over mine on a pic.
:friendly_wink:
 

FNG

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I'd say slap a set of mediums on it and see she how she plays. I'd bet that the nut probably isn't cut that precisely and mediums would be fine. The picture you posted does look like you have some room.

I'd still upgrade the saddle!
 
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