How best to describe a guitar neck

Rich Cohen

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I need some help from my fellow LTGers. I recently sold my GSR F-47KCE. The buyer received it today and called me saying he doesn't want to keep it because the neck is "really small." He also said he never owned a Guild, nor ever played a koa guitar. Oh well. I'll re-post it on Reverb. I had fully described the guitar, including mentioning the nut width. How can I best describe the neck and how best to take measurements?

Thanks!
Rich Cohen
 

adorshki

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I need some help from my fellow LTGers. I recently sold my GSR F-47KCE. The buyer received it today and called me saying he doesn't want to keep it because the neck is "really small." He also said he never owned a Guild, nor ever played a koa guitar. Oh well. I'll re-post it on Reverb. I had fully described the guitar, including mentioning the nut width. How can I best describe the neck and how best to take measurements?

Thanks!
Rich Cohen

Buyer is obviuosly unknowledgeable about the variety of detail in guitar construction, as I was when I joined here, even though I'd been playing for 40 years.
I'm going along with you on cutting buyer some slack because of that.
Never realized there were many nut widths out there depending on maker and vintage until I saw it being discussed here.
Only knew classicals were a lot fatter and flatter.
First time I realized there were standard neck profiles was when I saw a diagram in the 2001 Fender Frontline catalog that I'd never noticed before, ad the light went on about why my Corona D40 felt like ti had stiffer action than my Westerly D25 even though all the set-up specs and strings were identical.
So, suggesting that in addition to nut width you can mention the "profile".
Serious players like the ones around here can then make their own judgement.
For uneducated players like the current buyer, all I can say is try to make sure they understand what they're getting into with some pro-active questioning if you sense any "weakness" in their experience level.
Neck profile diagram:
images
 

merlin6666

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Sorry to hear. If this was a Reverb or eBay purchase lack of knowledge of a guitar is not really an acceptable reason for return, so you are very kind. I hope you will receive it in the same condition as you sent it. A google search shows quite a few resources, for example:

http://www.crookcustomguitars.com/2012/07/23/how-to-measure-a-guitar-neck/

or charts like this for qualitative description:

guitar-neck-contours.jpg
 

Stuball48

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Al:
Thanks to you my neck profile understanding is, now, much improved.
 

adorshki

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Buyer is obviuosly unknowledgeable about the variety of detail in guitar construction, as I was when I joined here, even though I'd been playing for 40 years.
I'm going along with you on cutting buyer some slack because of that.
Never realized there were many nut widths out there depending on maker and vintage until I saw it being discussed here.
Only knew classicals were a lot fatter and flatter.
First time I realized there were standard neck profiles was when I saw a diagram in the 2001 Fender Frontline catalog that I'd never noticed before, ad the light went on about why my Corona D40 felt like ti had stiffer action than my Westerly D25 even though all the set-up specs and strings were identical.
So, suggesting that in addition to nut width you can mention the "profile".
Serious players like the ones around here can then make their own judgement.
For uneducated players like the current buyer, all I can say is try to make sure they understand what they're getting into with some pro-active questioning if you sense any "weakness" in their experience level.
Neck profile diagram:
images
According to that one I'd classify my D25 and F65ce as "Modern Flat Oval", what nost people call "skinny", and the Corona D40 as a "50's D", what most call "chunky" or "baseball bat".
Here's one showing Gibson's getting thinner over the years:
radius-copie-2a9ad27.jpg


I searched Google Images for "Fender guitar neck profiles" to get those and it'll bring back many other examples as well, but that first one covers most if not all of everything I've seen described here over the years.
Final note is that I've been saying for years now that "Chunky is in the hand of the holder" meaning that somebody with "big hands" might be completely dissatisfied with a 1-5/8" nut width, and find Guild's typical 1-11/16 just bearable,and only truly feel comfortable with the 1-3/4" nut with a "D" profile, as we've seen more and more of in the last few years.
Most 'seasoned" players have figured out what they like, especially those who look at intruments in the F47 Koa range.
Hope that helps!
 
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adorshki

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Al:
Thanks to you my neck profile understanding is, now, much improved.

Whoopsie, I see I quoted myself when I though I was editing but offered a couple of additional insights too.
and Merlin found the one that actually appeared in the Frontline catalog, and it's easier to see too.
:friendly_wink:
 

GAD

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I measure all of my necks because to me terms like "soft c-shape" are meaningless.

Example from my X79 review. Doing this involves having a caliper, which is a good thing to have if you're selling a lot of guitars IMO.

Guild-1982-X79-NeckMeasurements2.png


FWIW, I would not take a guitar back because someone thinks the neck is too small. I'm not a store. Now, if i didn't describe it well that's on me and of course I'll take it back, but I'm not Amazon.
 

richardp69

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I'm not sure if EBay's return policy has changed but let me share an actual experience with you. I sold an inexpensive D 25 for about $700 on Ebay. It was in really good shape. The buyer received it and said it was in great shape but it was a bit heavier than what he had expected. So, he filed a claim to return the guitar. I said that's ridiculous and refused the return.

Ebay sided with the buyer and said that because I had a return policy he could return for any reason. Their actual example was " if the weatherman says the chance of rain was 20% and felt it was really 25% then that was a valid basis for return". I'm serious, it happened!!!!

Unless I'm selling an expensive high-end guitar I no longer offer a return policy on Ebay. Now, if I failed to disclose something that really is an issue, or if it was damaged in transit well, of course, I'll take it back. Even if there's a family tragedy. For example a wife contacted me and said her husband who had bought my guitar was killed in a car accident. Well, who knows but I'm surely not going to challenge that so I took it back.

There are some real a hole buyers out there who I am sure take a lot of pleasure in making a sellers life miserable. Granted, that's very much in the minority but I've for sure experienced it.

I've never faced something like that with Reverb so I don't know how that would work.

I'm both a buyer and a seller but it seems on at least Ebay the Caveat Emptor saying is reversed. It really is Seller beware.

o.k., my rant is over. Back to Jack and Coke now!!!!!
 

GAD

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There's no doubt that eBay will side with the buyer and a lot of buyers know that and push their limits. Buy yeah, if you have a return policy listed on eBay, the buyer can return for any reason at all.
 

geoguy

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Sounds as though he simply didn't like the guitar ("never played a Guild, never played a koa guitar"), and is using the "small neck" description as an excuse.

@ GAD: when you measure the neck thickness at various fret positions, I assume you are measuring to the top of the fingerboard, and not the top of a fret, correct?
 

GAD

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walrus

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This is one of the reasons I have put all but four (out of maybe twelve) guitars I have sold on consignment at my local shop. And two of those four I sold to GC for cash.

Obviously, there are advantages and disadvantages to every strategy. I wish you well dealing with this, Rich!

walrus
 

adorshki

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o.k., my rant is over. Back to Jack and Coke now!!!!!
Words of wisdom, can't dwell on it, you'll just get your top over-torqued.
Sincerely hop it comes back as good as it left and that the suggetstions here promote more fruitful future caveat venditor.

:friendly_wink:
 
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F312

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Maybe when you get it back, you'll find out how much you love this guitar and you were meant to keep it, unless of course the neck is "really small", I kid.

Ralph
 

richardp69

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Actually, this is not a recent experience. It happened quite a while back. I just used it as an example.

I do more buying than a selling on Ebay and Reverb so trust me, I understand the need to protect the buyer. In fact, I support that as long as it's reasonable. I've had only a handful of transactions either as a buyer or seller that have been a lousy experience. And, I've done a lot of on line buying with over 1,000 transactions between Reverb and Ebay I will say I've had quite a few more bad experiences with buyers (from me) than I have with sellers (to me)

I'm fine selling online and I believe you do better pricewise than selling to a store or on consignment. I have yet to have an issue on Reverb but I truly believe Ebay has gone way overboard in their quest to protect the buyers. Since I as a seller am paying their fees, I just think they need to be equally concerned with me than they are with the buyer. That's all I ask and I don't think it's unreasonable.
 

Quantum Strummer

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My old Tele (12/53) has a soft/medium V neck, which according to the folks who've researched this stuff is unusual. It's also deep at the nut, 1" on the nose, and thickens just a little toward the upper frets. Very comfy! IMO a chunky neck works well with a small-ish fretboard radius.

-Dave-
 

adorshki

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I have yet to have an issue on Reverb but I truly believe Ebay has gone way overboard in their quest to protect the buyers.

It may actually be true but it makes me ask "why".
Here's what I come up with:
If they alienate enough buyers, who likely outnumber sellers by some order of magnitude, then the sellers won't be selling anything anyway.
Everybody loses.
Instead of just the sellers.
So yeah you probably are gettin' the short end of the stick, but what're ya gonna do?
Go back to Dregslist?
I say that with sincere sympathy. It'd drive me nuts enough to engage in fantasy revenge scenarios.
 

merlin6666

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I'm fine selling online and I believe you do better pricewise than selling to a store or on consignment. I have yet to have an issue on Reverb but I truly believe Ebay has gone way overboard in their quest to protect the buyers.

If the buyers are aware of it. About 16 years ago I bought my first "good" guitar which was also my first purchase on eBay. It looked good when it arrived with slackened strings, but after I played it for a few days I noticed that the rosette had lifted up and the top had sunk. This happened because some braces had become lose. On close inspection it also looked as if the label had been tampered with. And you know what ... I was totally naive and did nothing as I firmly believed that everything was done with the purchase and I had no recopurse. Instead I just looked at the yellow pages and found a repair guy who fixed it for I think was about $50. It turned out to be an awesome guitar in terms of sound and playability, probably one of the best I ever owned (though it never lost that aura of bad luck and I have no regrets of letting it go way below value). Anyway, had I known about eBay buyer protection I would have acted very differently.
 

wileypickett

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I've seen several people dissing them here, but I have to say, I'm very fond of Craigslist myself. I've never had a bad experience either as buyer or seller, and as a buyer I've found a number of great (or curious or weird) instruments at great (or curious or weird) prices, some of which I've passed onto people here on LTG.

The advantages with CL -- assuming the seller is local -- are obvious: you can try out the guitar before you buy; haggle in person if you find anything to be concerned about after inspecting it; meet the seller face to face (I've met several folks with really interesting stories -- my F50 for instance was used to back up Shirley Bassey ["Goldfinger"], Shirley Scott and several other jazz singers and players, and the seller had pictures to prove it); you don't have to ship or have something shipped to you, etc.

What are the disadvantages? Sometimes the pictures and descriptions aren't very good? Quelle Horreur! (And even that can be a good thing -- sometimes knowing more than the seller or other possible buyers gives you a leg-up.)

I have bought and sold a lot on eBay, but I'm doing less selling these days. I got burned really bad as a seller in the early days of eBay, before they revised their policies. Today I find it reassuring as a buyer to know I'm not stuck if I get something that isn't as advertised.

But I'll always offer something on Craigslist before I put it up on Reverb or eBay, or even before I offer it here.
 

adorshki

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If the buyers are aware of it. About 16 years ago.....
Perfectly good point, but I do think we've got a lot more sophisticated group of buyers out there now, what with the rise of Amazon and other online marketplaces.
We're looking at the top of the mountain from the foot of it.
eBay's looking from the top down, they see ALL the buyers and sellers.
Admittedly it is only speculation on my part, but it makes sense from the "Don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs" standpoint, as far as who to show preferential treatment to, that's all I was getting at.

I've seen several people dissing them here, but I have to say, I'm very fond of Craigslist myself. I've never had a bad experience either as buyer or seller, and as a buyer I've found a number of great (or curious or weird) instruments at great (or curious or weird) prices, some of which I've passed onto people here on LTG.

The advantages with CL -- assuming the seller is local -- are obvious: you can try out the guitar before you buy; haggle in person if you find anything to be concerned about after inspecting it; meet the seller face to face (I've met several folks with really interesting stories -- my F50 for instance was used to back up Shirley Bassey ["Goldfinger"], Shirley Scott and several other jazz singers and players, and the seller had pictures to prove it); you don't have to ship or have something shipped to you, etc.
More good points and yeah the old "dregslist" epithet was a cheap shot on my part.
I will say in my own defense that we still see regular reports of another scam regarding duped buyers set-up for rip-off in a variety of methods.
How about renting out property you don't even own, advertised on the list ?!?!
Or the unwary seller admitting complete strangers to the house who case the joint for future burglary.
True stories "out here in the big city".
But yeah professional crooks don't "specialize" in the list.
It's just one more resource for them.
We see scams on the 'bay, too, to be fair.
PS love that Shirley Bassey story!
 
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