Pickup inside of traditional style guitars

This may be a stupid question but here goes anyway.
I have been looking at the Orpheums. I wanted a nice 12 fret guitar with wider nut and this seems to fit. It doesn't seem there are too many Orpheum owners active but I'm hoping the subject is more general than just my specific example.

I have been looking at them and reading ads for the ones that are out there but I haven't seen even one that had electronics. I was wondering if it isn't wise to put electronics in these lighter built guitars or if they aren't the kind of guitars that people haul around and gig with? Any ideas or am I just confused.

Thank, Keith

Hi Keith!

I don't think the type of guitar makes much difference in whether or not you use a pick up.

I like the the K&K Mini's. Very non-invasive installation, no electronics or battery inside the guitar and they sound great. The only drawback is some folks prefer the sound with an external pre amp or DI box.

I've never liked the sound quality of any UST's I've heard.

Yup. Ditto everything Bernie said. Type of guitar doesn't dictate type of pickup. Like Bernie, I'm happy with my K&K Mini. Under-the-saddle pickups seem to cause more problems than they solve.

A simpler, cheaper solution is a soundhole pickup. I used one for years, a Dean Markley Pro Mag. It was great. But the cable finally wore out, and since I've finally found the guitar I'll take to the grave, I got the K&K. (A major advantage of a soundhole pickup is that you can move it from one guitar to another.)

A very little bit about preamps:

I do have a simple, effective preamp, a Fire-Eye Red-Eye. Don't know enough about amplification to know whether it's really necessary, but the folks I play with think it is. What I do know is that it's much more useful and intuitive than the Fishman and the BBE I bought, tried, and got rid of in frustration.

If it seems pricey, read the reviews. I'm a tightwad, but it was really worth a few more dollars to have a preamp I didn't want to throw across the room.

Electronics are a personal preference item. Not everybody wants them, needs them or thinks that they are value added. At one of the factory tours Guild noted that people liked electronics on some models more than others but it was the expected market that determined which models had factory electronics, not whether the instrument was "light". At one point they only offered cutaways on models with electronics and at another point the neck strap button was only installed on models with electronics. Those decisions were based upon what they thought they market was like.

So if you believe electronics are more common on "light builds" what you are really saying is that players who prefer light builds are believed to be more likely to want factory electronics.

It's not a big deal. People who want them badly enough can add them later. With a good logistical organization a factory could add electronics to any instrument it made if they wanted to respond to individualized market demand.

In the case of the Orpheums there was a lot of buzz about them being the guitar Guild would have made in the 1930's if Guild had existed then. So they were looking for a shape and sound and the audience was most likely to be someone who knew acoustic guitars very well and probably did not want electronics.

But it is all about features someone believed would, or would not, sell and not about whether an instrument is a "light build".

IMO. YMMV.

fronobulax said:

In the case of the Orpheums there was a lot of buzz about them being the guitar Guild would have made in the 1930's if Guild had existed then. So they were looking for a shape and sound and the audience was most likely to be someone who knew acoustic guitars very well and probably did not want electronics.

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Agreed.

fronobulax said:

But it is all about features someone believed would, or would not, sell and not about whether an instrument is a "light build".

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Also agreed.

nyimbo said:

I have been looking at them and reading ads for the ones that are out there but I haven't seen even one that had electronics.

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I don't think they made any with pickups.

nyimbo said:

I was wondering if it isn't wise to put electronics in these lighter built guitars

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Expanding on Frono's comments, I think it's more a case of their intention to produce as "pure" a sound as possible. There's a school of thought that believes that an Under Saddle Transducer:
A)produces inherently inferior sound quality compared to good miking, and
B)inherently saps some amount of acoustic tone because it necessarily sits between the saddle and the bridge itself, and that's the primary point of transmission of energy into the top.***

nyimbo said:

or if they aren't the kind of guitars that people haul around and gig with?

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That's a reasonable guess as well, there's lots of folks here who won't take certain guitars out of their houses, and I also suspect that if they were used for gigging, the owner'd be somebody who recognized the superiority of good micing over a UST anyway.

*** whether or not that difference is audible to the average joe has been debated, and truthfully I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference if the UST was taken out of my D40.
My F65ce is a little different, it's a higher-end build with a thinner top and might sound a little better without the UST, but another giveaway about which type of pickup is considered "better" is that the later ones came with both a UST AND an internal soundhole mic and the pre-amp had a feature to mix the proportions of each in the output signal. You could go "pure mic" if you wanted to.
"Read between those lines"
:friendly_wink:

I was going to write a followup but my alarm just went off and I have a dentist apt. :hororr:
I'll have to come back later with followup but for now thanks, I appreciate the comments.

Keith

How'd it go at the dentist?

Since I've been on a crusade to educate, those who run a piezo direct into a mixing board are just wrong. It will make noise, the kind of horrible tone that give piezos of all kind a bad name. The reason for this is impedance mismatch. A piezo reacts to the input impedance of the next device in line. I'm not going into a long electronic explanation. The average mixer has an 800 ohm input impedance. This is fine for keyboards, magnetic pickups and the like. Run a piezo into that and you get a harsh high end frequency bump that just sounds thin.

So, if your guitar has a piezo pickup and no battery powered onboard electronics (tone, volume, etc.) you must have a devise that changes the signal into one that outputs a signal that matches the mixer's input impedance. Do this and you have a fatter, more even tone. This can be a simple DI, but beware, there are DIs that don't have the 1 Meg ohm input impedance you need. Many of what we call pre amps incorporate this into their design, along with tone, volume, effects send and receive, etc.

I came upon this mission while noticing that very few folks at my open mic used preamps. They just plugged in. And the host never had a pre or DI. Invariably people would want the highs turned down. I really got sick of hearing $5000 guitars with K&K pickups sound thin and harsh, so when I heard of a new company, SunnAudio, and heard the sound of a prototype at Teddy Randazzo's shop, I called them up and had them custom make me a Blender DI in a box, with two inputs so all can sound good. We run a separate input to the board for those with onboard electronics like the Taylor systems.

I am a long time RedEye fan, but the SunnAudio sounds better. The circuit is either onboard, or incorporated into their new Stage DI outboard box.
I ordered one because I've left the blender with the open mic PA.

Br1ck said:

Since I've been on a crusade to educate,

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I can relate o that, and the distinction of whether or not there's a pre-amp between a piezo and the board is an excellent point.
When I originally posted about UST's I was thinking about the notorious "piezo quack" that so many people complain about, and that even the best ones with the 18v preamp for good head-room still exhibit traces of it.
But I have to admit I have extremely limited personal experience even with my own gear.
What's your opinion of the microphone vs UST question, sound quality (or at least best potential quality, assuming optimum equipment and set up for each) wise?

Ok, Dentist said my teeth looked good. Yea! Sorry for the personal interlude.

Several questions came to mind not about my original post. I think the first replys were clear enough.

New questions coming below. I might as well ask here since they are related to the electronic discussion above.
1. I play my acoustic/electric in the band at church and perhaps like in many smaller venues the sound folks are not well trained, they just enjoy helping out (just like myself). I have a Boss Singer (60watt acoustic amp) that I use for my monitor. The Boss has a DI output on the back. Should I plug the guitar straight into the Boss Amp and then use the amp's DI output to go to the board. OR should I go from guitar first to the direct box and then the DI box sends on my sound to the board and the other output back to my Boss Amp for my monitor sound?

2. Ok this question relates to question 1 as well as the previous discussion about going straight into the board. In the church's traditional service they play all the old hymns that the long timers enjoy. So for this service I take my classical and play mostly fingerstyle with the softer music.

My classical has an under-saddle piezo. Is that also the same as a UST? I have just been plugging straight into my BOSS and using it to balance the sound and add a touch of reverb. Is that ok, or do I need to use an external preamp like you all were mentioning with the Fire Eye and Sunn Audio so on.

Thanks again

Ok more questions, please don't kick me out.
Just googled the the K&K seems it seems quite reasonably priced. The Fire eye red eye preamp was a lot more than I expected.

Is the K&K to be installed professionally? Regarding the preamp where does it live. Does it sit on the floor with the pedals etc.? keith

nyimbo said:

2. My classical has an undersaddle piezo. Is that also the same as a UST?

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A UST is an Under Saddle Transducer...i.e. a piezo...yes, the same.

For your other questions you'll have to wait for one of our sound dudes...like Nuuska, our pro FOH soundman...to come along.

Hello

The importance of correct impedance matching must be taken in account in all audio systems.

Before writing anything more - you could read what was discussed earlier in :

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...Amp-the-DeArmond-Rhythm-Chief-floating-pickup

nyimbo said:

My classical has an under-saddle piezo. Is that also the same as a UST?

Click to expand...

Yes.
"Piezo" is short for "piezo-electric" which is any material that produces a small current when subject to pressure changes such as the changing tension of strings on the saddle, which squeezes the transducer in the bottom of the saddle slot.
Back to your original question about adding such a device to an Orpheum, it does require drilling a small hole through the bridge and top at one end of the saddle slot, (for the lead to the jack and/or pre-amp) and possibly adjustment of depth of slot or height of saddle, and possible routing of bottom of saddle slot to ensure absolute flatness which is critical to proper function of the pickup, and finally, probable drilling of the endpin hole to accept a 1/4" jack to plug in with.
The drilled holes would probably be a turn-off to a purist if you think you'll ever sell the guitar.
From an appraiser's standpoint, on a guitar like an Orpheum, it'd absolutely be a value deduct if not factory original, even if a prospective buyer considered it to be an added value.

nyimbo said:

I have just been plugging straight into my BOSS and using it to balance the sound and add a touch of reverb. Is that ok, or do I need to use an external preamp like you all were mentioning with the Fire Eye and Sunn Audio so on.

Click to expand...

See Nuuska's and Br1ck's comments.

Br1ck said:

Since I've been on a crusade to educate, those who run a piezo direct into a mixing board are just wrong. It will make noise, the kind of horrible tone that give piezos of all kind a bad name. The reason for this is impedance mismatch. A piezo reacts to the input impedance of the next device in line. I'm not going into a long electronic explanation. The average mixer has an 800 ohm input impedance. This is fine for keyboards, magnetic pickups and the like. Run a piezo into that and you get a harsh high end frequency bump that just sounds thin.

So, if your guitar has a piezo pickup and no battery powered onboard electronics (tone, volume, etc.) you must have a devise that changes the signal into one that outputs a signal that matches the mixer's input impedance. Do this and you have a fatter, more even tone. This can be a simple DI, but beware, there are DIs that don't have the 1 Meg ohm input impedance you need. Many of what we call pre amps incorporate this into their design, along with tone, volume, effects send and receive, etc.

I came upon this mission while noticing that very few folks at my open mic used preamps. They just plugged in. And the host never had a pre or DI. Invariably people would want the highs turned down. I really got sick of hearing $5000 guitars with K&K pickups sound thin and harsh, so when I heard of a new company, SunnAudio, and heard the sound of a prototype at Teddy Randazzo's shop, I called them up and had them custom make me a Blender DI in a box, with two inputs so all can sound good. We run a separate input to the board for those with onboard electronics like the Taylor systems.

I am a long time RedEye fan, but the SunnAudio sounds better. The circuit is either onboard, or incorporated into their new Stage DI outboard box.
I ordered one because I've left the blender with the open mic PA.

Click to expand...

You just made me feel a whole lot better about sinking money into a preamp.

nyimbo said:

Ok more questions, please don't kick me out.
Just googled the the K&K seems it seems quite reasonably priced. The Fire eye red eye preamp was a lot more than I expected.

Is the K&K to be installed professionally? Regarding the preamp where does it live. Does it sit on the floor with the pedals etc.? keith

Click to expand...

You can install it yourself if you know how and have the tools. (Obviously.) A guitar repair buddy installed mine.

Yup, that's why I didn't get a Red-Eye to begin with, even though folks told me to. But after the Fishman and BBE were busts, I decided to listen to people.

By the way, I got all three preamps used at www.reverb.com. Prices aren't quite so scary there, and transactions are easy and safe.

nyimbo said:

Ok more questions, please don't kick me out.
Just googled the the K&K seems it seems quite reasonably priced. The Fire eye red eye preamp was a lot more than I expected.

Is the K&K to be installed professionally? Regarding the preamp where does it live. Does it sit on the floor with the pedals etc.? keith

Click to expand...

You can install it yourself if you know how and have the tools. (Obviously.) A guitar repair buddy installed mine.

And yup, that's why I didn't get a Red-Eye to begin with, even though lots of folks (especially at www.mandolincafe.com) said I'd like it. But after the Fishman and BBE were busts, I decided to bite the bullet.

By the way, I got all three preamps used at www.reverb.com. Prices aren't quite so scary that way, and transactions are easy and safe.

adorshki said:

Yes.
"Piezo" is short for "piezo-electric" which is any material that produces a small current when subject to pressure changes such as the changing tension of strings on the saddle, which squeezes the transducer in the bottom of the saddle slot.
Back to your original question about adding such a device to an Orpheum, it does require drilling a small hole through the bridge and top at one end of the saddle slot, (for the lead to the jack and/or pre-amp) and possibly adjustment of depth of slot or height of saddle, and possible routing of bottom of saddle slot to ensure absolute flatness which is critical to proper function of the pickup, and finally, probable drilling of the endpin hole to accept a 1/4" jack to plug in with.
The drilled holes would probably be a turn-off to a purist if you think you'll ever sell the guitar.
From an appraiser's standpoint, on a guitar like an Orpheum, it'd absolutely be a value deduct if not factory original, even if a prospective buyer considered it to be an added value.

Click to expand...

Thanks for mentioning that point. That is something to think throught for sure and something I didn't consider.

Also thanks Charlie for the Reverb suggestion as well. I am used to looking at Reverb for the Guitar but didn't think about the other accessories.

Keith

I have found the best combination of no fuss plug and play to be a soundboard transducer into a good pre amp. I have never heard an undersaddle transducer that sounded good to me, especially the ones put in under $500 electro- acoustics.

As a result of basic good fortune, I live very close to Teddy Randazzo of Dazzo pickup fame. I got a recommendation from a friend who heard Teddy play, and man can he ever, so after not liking the Baggs I had in my Martin, I had a Dazzo installed in another guitar. At the time Teddy recommended the RedEye pre that I've been very happy with. This pickup was a revelation. What it isn't is a mic, piezo combo system, which can be quite good but adds another layer of complexity.

Now let me clairify, most if not all acoustic amps have a high input impedance hardwired to the input or a switch to put it into the circuit. In this case, the amp has a pre in it and you don't need a DI or a pre. So you can match impedance with an onboard pre, a stand alone pre, or the pre in an amp. You can use the XLR output from an amp to send a signal to a PA, but this signal may not have a seperate output volume, so if you boost the volume at the amp, you boost the signal to the PA. You don't always want to do this.

Many outboard Pre amps have two outputs, one you send to the amp, the other to the PA. This way you can have your amp as a monitor you can adjust the volume on without infuriating the sound man. But if you want to use the effects on your amp, you need to use that amp's XLR to send signal to the PA. Just don't futz with volume once the PA mix is set.

So back to the outboard pre issue. A friend had Dazzos put into a Martin 000 16 I sold him years ago. It sounded fabulous. He skipped having an on board SunnAudio system put in because he playes through an acoustic amplifier. Well, two days later, he shows up at open mic and plugs into the PA. He sounded harsh and trebly and quacky, and I thought what the hell is wrong? I asked the host what he was using as a Direct box. The answer was nothing. Now I had not thought of this because I always used my RedEye, but then I realized that 90% of the open mic players with piezos were using nothing between the guitar and the PA. The Taylors always sound OK, because of the onboard pre.

Around this time Teddy had been working with a new company, SunnAudio, on some pre amp circuitry. It sounded better than my RedEye. They made m a box version of their Blender DI for the open mic. We had an A/B box and switched it in and out for folks. They were astounded at the difference. They now get patched through the SunnAudio DI as a matter of course. Onboard systems have a separate direct channel to the board. Now I'm told K&K states in their manual the need for a pre. It is retailers who do not educate their customers. Why? I think they think that their customers would not have pickups installed if the new they needed to buy a pre too.

As far as installation, it is not rocket science, but if the thought of drilling a hole in your $2000 guitar makes you queezy, or don't solder, leave it to a pro.

Now I think Dazzos sound way better than K&Ks, but some are reluctant to venture into new waters, but Teddy will consult with any tech regarding the right pickup match, and even send pictures. I have five sets of Dazzos for a reason. They sound very good, need little to no EQ, aren't horribly complex or expensive.

I can't say how thrilled I am with the SunnAudio products either, iceing on the cake to have a perfect match for the Dazzos, though they sound great with K&Ks too.