Should I drill out the tuner holes on this '69 D-40 or not?

awagner said:

I disagree with this statement. If a vintage guitar has had a quality reset that will obviate the need for one for many years, I believe it actually enhances the value. More true for 12 strings, but for 6 strings as well. At least for me.

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Where did this talk of a neck reset come from?
Islandtexan stated in the original post about taking it to a local tech: "He confirmed no need for a neck reset and did a really simple set-up while he had it. "

Br1ck said:

Leave them alone. They work. They are original. I've seen too many butchered tuner installations.

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+1. Nothing about ego...but I do care about marketability because I do not always keep my guitars for lengthy periods. Replacement tuners on collectible vintage guitars degrade value and marketability. OK everyone...go ahead and shoot me now.

Kitarkus said:

+1. Nothing about ego...but I do care about marketability because I do not always keep my guitars for lengthy periods. Replacement tuners on collectible vintage guitars degrade value and marketability. OK everyone...go ahead and shoot me now.

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I agree, with one exception. If the tuners just do not work, then replace them with drop-in replacements that require no alterations, and keep the originals in the case. Pretty much all you can do with those old Klusons with the deteriorating plastic keystones.

NO. nnnnnnnoooooo

docfishr said:

Wow! I was unaware that Guild ever used MIJ tuners on any of their models. I'd like to see a pic.

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Oh yeah, confirmed by Hans many times on various models.
My dos centavos to the OP is that while it may not be all that valuable now, it might well be in our lifetimes and for that reason I also would not make any irreversible changes.
New screw holes are minor.
Permanently enlarged tuner holes are another issue entirely.
I'm certain you could find something acceptable to fit if you want to enhance "usability".
Did somebody mention 18:1 Grover Sta-tites as being useful for these, somewhere?

docfishr said:

Bottom line its your guitar do what you want.

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Yeah I've agreed with that before too, but in this case I'd say "only if you're sure you'll never want to sell it"

Stew Mac offers some three-on-a-plate style replacement tuners, but they ain't exactly cheap!

http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and...MI7ce26d-j2gIVkLrACh0UOQQ1EAQYASABEgIGFPD_BwE

If you replace the old tuners with individual Grovers, or something similar, you're going to have to make new screw holes. The three-on-a-plate tuners typically attach with four screws per side, the Grovers with three screws per side and they won't line up with any of the old screw holes.

You have to decide on the "keeping it original" versus "ease of play" issue.

If I'm planning to play a guitar with any regularity, good tuners are a must. I prefer an 18:1 or greater tuning ratio.

I'm definitely in the "it's your guitar, do whatever you like with it" camp.

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to make any modification to a guitar if it makes it sound better or play better.

Heck, I'd run over it with a lawnmower if it accomplished either of those things!

More seriously, I've owned more than 40 Guilds over the years and still have just under 20. I've done tuner upgrades on most of them. Whenever I sell a guitar, I note any changes I've made to it. I've never sold guitar for less than I paid for it and several have sold for more than I paid.

No one has ever asked me whether a guitar is all original or not, and that goes for the ones I've sold here on LTG.

Maybe no one has asked because I've noted the changes upfront, or maybe the only people who have responded to my ads are the ones for whom originality is a non-issue?

Hello once more

I am adding this point - if you are going to keep it till you die - go for it.
If you are worrying of how much your ( insert here whoever gets it after you are gone ) is going to get for it because YOU up & done it - simply do not worry it.
If you are hesitant - maybe thinking that you might after all sell it in next few years - wait or get something that fits right in - even if they are not the best, but better than what is there now. You can figure it out later, when you KNOW if it is a keeper or not.

Something similar goes on with home decorating - to this age I have met countless people who have their DULL wallpapers selected on basis - "if we ever sell this, it should not be a turn-off" - heck - after that they live there for three decades secretly wishing their home had some spark instead those dull wallpapers.

Whatever you do - some folks will think you did just the right thing - some folks might think you´re out of your mind - some fall in between. Most of them probably don´t give a s""t - But whatever you choose to do can never please everyone. Therefore - listen to your inside and do what YOU think is the right thing.

Your life - your guitar. Be happy.

Hello folks,

Since I'm a repairman and my main job is keeping guitars in good working order, I try to be pragmatic when these kind of questions present themselves. However, I'm also a historian and I like to see guitars in their original condition and we are lucky that so many 'drop in' aftermarket parts are available these days.

In this case we are looking at a set of Japanese tuners that was only used by Guild for a short period of time and to the best of my knowledge there is no aftermarket tuner with a similar footprint (and of reasonable quality) available to replace the ones on this D-40.

Since this guitar is from 1967 (and not from 1969) I was thinking about using another set of tuners that Guild used for a couple of years before the guitar under discussion was made. They were made by Van Gent and they are really good quality tuners that will probably come close to covering the footprint of the original tuners. I believe it should be possible to find a good working set that would have been factory correct if the guitar had been made a year before that.

This is what these tuners on a D-40 from 1966 would look like:



Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

I would stick with the original tuners, as long as they hold tune, if it were me.

hansmoust said:

Hello folks,

Since I'm a repairman and my main job is keeping guitars in good working order, I try to be pragmatic when these kind of questions present themselves. However, I'm also a historian and I like to see guitars in their original condition and we are lucky that so many 'drop in' aftermarket parts are available these days.

In this case we are looking at a set of Japanese tuners that was only used by Guild for a short period of time and to the best of my knowledge there is no aftermarket tuner with a similar footprint (and of reasonable quality) available to replace the ones on this D-40.

Since this guitar is from 1967 (and not from 1969) I was thinking about using another set of tuners that Guild used for a couple of years before the guitar under discussion was made. They were made by Van Gent and they are really good quality tuners that will probably come close to covering the footprint of the original tuners. I believe it should be possible to find a good working set that would have been factory correct if the guitar had been made a year before that.

This is what these tuners on a D-40 from 1966 would look like:

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

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Awesome Hans ! and Wow how cool !

I’ll take the old ones ! Lol I scratched my head when the tuners were mentioned as MIJ thought it was a typo for Germany . Lol

Now I have roll back and see what is wrong these tuners again .

One question I have would be are they restorable .
All ya need is one good machinist !

hansmoust said:

Hello folks,

Since I'm a repairman and my main job is keeping guitars in good working order, I try to be pragmatic when these kind of questions present themselves. However, I'm also a historian and I like to see guitars in their original condition and we are lucky that so many 'drop in' aftermarket parts are available these days.

In this case we are looking at a set of Japanese tuners that was only used by Guild for a short period of time and to the best of my knowledge there is no aftermarket tuner with a similar footprint (and of reasonable quality) available to replace the ones on this D-40.

Since this guitar is from 1967 (and not from 1969) I was thinking about using another set of tuners that Guild used for a couple of years before the guitar under discussion was made. They were made by Van Gent and they are really good quality tuners that will probably come close to covering the footprint of the original tuners. I believe it should be possible to find a good working set that would have been factory correct if the guitar had been made a year before that.

This is what these tuners on a D-40 from 1966 would look like:

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

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Hello

THOSE tuners look very much like the tuners that were used in Hagström bass guitars - I have three of those here and can take pictures tomorrow, if needed. Meanwhile here is a pic I quickly found on internet... Naturally guitar tuners are smaller, but the shape and that one screw holding the cup is just the same.

Nuuska said:

THOSE tuners look very much like the tuners that were used in Hagström bass guitars - I have three of those here and can take pictures tomorrow, if needed. Meanwhile here is a pic I quickly found on internet... Naturally guitar tuners are smaller, but the shape and that one screw holding the cup is just the same.

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Yes, they look similar because they were made by the same manufacturer, but obviously they can't be used on a guitar because of their much larger size.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

hansmoust said:

Yes, they look similar because they were made by the same manufacturer, but obviously they can't be used on a guitar because of their much larger size.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

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+

I can't believe Hans went to the trouble to look back at my earlier posts and found my error. Yes, it is a 1967. In regard to the great looking Van Gent tuners, ouch! There's a six-in-line set (not what I need of course) on Reverb for 200 bucks! I'll keep looking as sometimes online sellers are total dreamers about what something's worth. My other thought, especially after someone appropriately pointed out that these DaVanci's probably belong on a newer guitar (I actually have another set on an electric), I was thinking about maybe finding something like the Schallers that don't have a visible set screw but would drop in the existing holes. That's actually part of what drove me to consider putting the DaVinci's in this guitar in the first place.

Nuuska said:

Your life - your guitar. Be happy.

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And from our friend from Finland, there is THIS!! Ultimately it's your decision. Having been in the furniture restoration and repair business for a bit, I had to deal with people getting worried about the sanctity of their dining room table and chairs. I had to remind that, "They made a million of these and they're old and dreadful looking and what your designer is suggesting will make you SUPER happy and bring new life to old furniture." So you have to evaluate your situation and see what you think. :encouragement:

Cool!

These 1966 D40 tuners were made by Hagstrom, in Alvdalen, Sweden. I was a big Hagstrom fan back in my electric days and had a bunch of Hagstroms. I got to visit Karl-Erik Hagstrom in Alvdalen (by accident!) when my band Cul de Sac were touring through there with Damo Suzuki, of the German band Can.

Karl-Erik took me to the old abandoned factory, which had been closed since the '70s and gave me a bunch of old parts and catalogues. I have several sets of these tuners, though I'd never seen a set on any Guild before. (I have seen Hagstrom Tune-o-Matic style bridges on some Guild electrics from that era, so apparently Guild were getting several parts from them.)

The outer shell of the tuner connects with one machine screw to the tuner itself, and the tuner connects with two screws to the headstock.

Hello

Hagström had 8-string bass with separate tuners for each string - the octave string tuners were also guitar tuners and similar in construction as "big brothers"

As promised yesterday - here are some pictures that reveal the construction - taken with an old iPhone










EDIT - should first drink morning coffee before starting to post - looks like the 8-string bass had different tuners than mine - different shape "hood"

One more

found this in eBay - reasonable price - worldwide shipping.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/NOS-Vintage...603631?hash=item4b3dd039af:g:tAcAAOSwQiBZyl1n

And while all this time we have been debating whether or not drill or this or that - one essential question remains unanswered - have you opened the old tuners to check, if they could be cleaned and oiled to make them smooth again. And while they are removed - check the wholes in headstock, clean and grease them with graphite.

This is getting really interesting . . .

wileypickett said:

These 1966 D40 tuners were made by Hagstrom, in Alvdalen, Sweden.

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No, they were not made by Hagstrom. They were made by Van Gent (or sometimes spelled as Van Ghent) as I stated in my earlier posting.

Nuuska said:

found this in eBay - reasonable price - worldwide shipping.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/NOS-Vintage...603631?hash=item4b3dd039af:g:tAcAAOSwQiBZyl1n

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I'm familiar with that seller. He's located in the Netherlands as well. I was really excited when I first noticed his auctions a couple of months ago.
Even though he did not have the correct tuners that were used on Guild guitars, I decided to buy 6 sets of the types he had just to have them in case I would need some for repairs. When I got them it turned out that all of the tuners, which were all 'new old stock', had terrible 'play' on the handles.
I tried to combine them so I would at least end up with a couple of good working sets, but of the 36 units there were only 2 usable; these 2 were not even excellent working ones.

Obviously I did send them all back, but I must admit that I was really disappointed and somewhat surprised. I have several 40-50 year old guitars in my personal collection with those same tuners and there is no 'play' on them whatsoever. I have no idea where the seller found these 'new old stock' tuner sets, but the only thing that I can think of is that these are all 'rejects' from the Van Gent factory.

Anyway, here's a photo that shows the 'way-too-big' bass tuner and the two other types that could be used:



The one on the left is the type that was used on the D-40 during the mid-'60s; the one on the right is a somewhat similar looking one that has a smaller housing, so it could be used on guitars with 6-in-line headstocks.

And while all this time we have been debating whether or not drill or this or that - one essential question remains unanswered - have you opened the old tuners to check, if they could be cleaned and oiled to make them smooth again. And while they are removed - check the wholes in headstock, clean and grease them with graphite.

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The original tuners were not really made to be opened. Of course it is possible to open them, but it's such a low quality tuner and while you could make it turn smoother, it will still have quite a bit of 'play' on the handles. But obviously, that would be the first thing to try!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl