12 Guild à la Kottke

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12 Guild à la Kottke

Hello, just discovered this great forum. I always liked Guild guitars, but I've never been lucky enough to own one.
Now, well, now I'm thinking to make up for that.
It's time for me for a second 12 string guitar. I play a Taylor LKSM with .013 medium gauge in open tunings. I only play fingerstyle (no strum) in the style of Leo Kottke. Now I need a 12 to play in standard tuning 1 full step low.
Well, I fell in love with those '60-'70 beautiful vintage Guilds. I was thinking about an F212, but maybe some other model in your opinion is better. Can you give me some suggestions? What do you think about the sound? And about the neck playability in this specific style? I watched a lot of video on Youtube and read a lot of review but it seems most people play strumming or old blues out of "her", and this is quite different. Sometimes a guitar is great on strumming and bad on fingerstyle and sometimes is the opposite so I'm quite confused.
My idea is to put some .012 medium gauge strings on it (like d'addario ej39) and tune it down a whole step or 1&1/2. Do you think it could work to sound well int the old Kottke compositions? I'm worried about the neck, too. Can it be settle to be played easy or it is quite hard and it's better a modern Guild?
Sorry for my bad english
Marco
 

JohnW63

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There are plenty of Guild 12 string owners, that I am sure will chime in, soon. I would guess that what model , and therefore shape and wood types, you might prefer depends on how loud you need it to play and what tone you hope to get. You have maple, rosewood, and mahogany sides and back. A few types of spruce and probably at LEAST 3 body shapes, as well as flat and arched backs.

I tend to play my non Guild 12 string a few different ways, so I will be curious to read what they recommend.
 

Stuball48

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Welcome Eso to a forum that offers a plethra of GOOD information about all guitars, especially, Guilds. But let me be the first to warn you, it is RARE TO OWN JUST ONE GUILD!
 

Nuuska

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Hello

Welcome to forum.

I play "Leo-style" , too. I use both standrd and open tunings - 8 or so different . . . I play fingerstyle only - with and without slide. My F212 and 512 work perfectly for that.

Actually - some decades ago when I lived in MPLS Leo played my 12-strings on few occasions. He liked them.

But if you are after his sound there is no other way than PLAY like he does. Because when he plays whatever - including Steinberger bass via Gallien Krueger amp through Marshall cabinet - he produces his sound. When I played his guitar, I could not produce the same sound, because we touch strings differently.
 
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Thanks John.
I'm not looking for a loud sound. I'm interested in sound and playability. I mean, there must be a warm sound, a good separation between notes because you need to hear every note clear, not a mess up, and not a jangle sound. Only considering wood it seems mahogany is right, but we know that the sound of a guitar depends on braces and a lot of other things.
 
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Thanks Nuuska for your precious reply.
No, I'm not trying to copy the same sound of Leo, I'm trying to find a guitar that sound "in the right way" playing his old songs, if you understand what I mean. I try to keep my sound, I play with bare finger and short nails so quite different from the early Leo.
What about the F212 nut width? I read somewhere it has 1 & 7/8 nut but sometimes I read 1&13/16 that is not enough for a 12 string in my opinion. I'm a quite confused about that.
Can you please compare the sound of the F212 and F512 for Kottke stuff? What works good for what? And what doesn't work? I mean Rosewood (generally speaking) seems to have too much sustain for this kind of style.
 

killdeer43

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WELCOME TO LTG!
I play finger style as well and have done so with Guild 12s from an F112 to an F512. Though I'd never claim to sound like Leo, I do a lot of his songs, especially the ones with great lyrics (I'm a lyrics freak).
I've tuned my 12s down a step because I like the way they sound, and capo up if I'm playing with someone in standard tuning.
I also flat pick if the occasion calls for it. I guess I treat it the same as I do a 6 string. Finger style or flat pick...whatever.
My D412 fits into my life both in sound and budget, and you might notice that my F112 is now a 6 string. It's all good. :courage:

Keep us posted and good luck in your search,
Joe
 
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Thanks Killdeer43 for your contribution.
Even if playing fast (and furious) is quite funny, I prefer his lyrics songs the most, too. Music needs to breathe

Generally speaking, are 1979-1980 good years for an F512? Where is it supposed to be built in that period? I found one in great condition but it will take me a very long driving to go to play it. And I'm still thinking Mahogany is better for my needs..... :ambivalence:
 

chazmo

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Marco, there are no "bad" years for an F-512. At least not that I've ever seen. I would never try to talk you out of an F-512, so you should try to play it if you can to see if it's what you want. An F-512 is a "lifetime" guitar if it is suitable for your needs. The "jumbo" body style (17" at the lower bout) is a big guitar, and not for everybody. And, as you noted, the Sitka spruce / Indian rosewood combination on the F-512 is extremely warm and chimey and might not be what you're looking for.

Anyway, I hope you love it as much as I love my F-512. For me, the F-512 is the ultimate 12-string Guild.
 

adorshki

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Thanks Killdeer43 for your contribution.
Even if playing fast (and furious) is quite funny, I prefer his lyrics songs the most, too. Music needs to breathe

Generally speaking, are 1979-1980 good years for an F512? Where is it supposed to be built in that period? I found one in great condition but it will take me a very long driving to go to play it. And I'm still thinking Mahogany is better for my needs..... :ambivalence:

HI Marco and welcome.
A '79-80 F512 would have been built in Westerly, Rhode island, probably their best-known and longest production factory ('67-2001)
I have only ever seen a 1-13/16 nut width spec for Westerly-built 12-strings but we know there was some variation on many of the Westerly Guild nut widths for a few different reasons.
For one thing all necks were hand-shaped, so a slight variation in nut width could result.
Sometimes they deliberately built a "batch" of 6-strings with a different width than the standard spec, but I can't recall ever seeing that mentioned for the 12-strings, except on special order guitars for Ralph Towner.
Guild 12-strings had 2 truss rods to prevent twisting from the large difference in string tension between the bass and treble sides.
They had the reputation of being able to withstand the tensions of standard tuning but it's possible a 35-40 year old sample would need a neck reset.
Let us know if you need more information on how to check the neck alignment.
IF the guitar was properly cared for and the neck is currently aligned well, it should be able to stand the tension of lights (.012) tuned down a whole step but I think .013's might be pushing it too hard.
They were designed for .10-.047
Also an F512 will be a physically larger guitar than an F212, it was based on the F50r with a 17" lower bout, but the F212/312 (mahogany or rosewood) was based on the F47 with a 16" lower bout.
If you've got time, when you find a possible candidate, put up pictures here and we can give you advice about condition.
Good luck!
Oh yes a flatback design is said to be better suited for pure fingerpicking. It will produce less sustain and clearer individual notes.
I think you're on the right track with an F212
 
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Thank you so much for all your precious informations.
Well, if you can teach me how to check the neck alignment I would appreciate it a lot.
Thanks again
 

adorshki

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Thank you so much for all your precious informations.
Well, if you can teach me how to check the neck alignment I would appreciate it a lot.
Thanks again
:friendly_wink:

Frank Ford, highly respected luthier at Gryphon Stringed Instruments (where many well-known San Francisco Bay area professional musicians have shopped for almost 50 years), explains it here:
(click on the link or cut and paste to your browser)
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html
Oh by the way the Ralph Towner necks were built wider, 2" in fact, "IIRC"; he liked 'em to feel as wide as a classical.
So I'd guess if there was variation on 12-string necks it would tend to be in the wider direction.
Ah, here's the link: and that's a custom F-212 with a 52mm(!) nut:
http://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2010/10/music-and-its-tools-ralph-towners-guild.html
In fact I'd forgotten, but the author of that blog mentions very early Guild 12's ('64-'74) had the 52mm nut.
And here's the custom F-212 with a 52mm(!) nut:
gettyimages-85028109jpg.jpg
 
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Rayk

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Thank you so much for all your precious informations.
Well, if you can teach me how to check the neck alignment I would appreciate it a lot.
Thanks again

Get a 24” or close straight edge lay it on top of frets place it up to bridge face making sure the straight edge lays flat against the frets . If it set even to the top of the bridge your good it sits to high or lower it may need a reset but there’s other factors .

Like how saddle is left to compensate if any .
Other factors in checking the neck angle is the last run of frets usually has fall off so make sure the straight flat on the lower frets 8 9 10 area .

Lastly is neck Relief make sure it sets right so it doesn’t effect the angle of the straight edge .


Oh poo , a link would have been easier which I see was posted lol
 

adorshki

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Oh poo , a link would have been easier which I see was posted lol

Yeah but now you can see a custom version of an F47-based 12-string.
I'm sorry but now that your F30 search seems to have ended I had to give you a new object for GAS-ification.
 

Westerly Wood

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i could never find any evidence of Leo playing a Guild 12. I always found that odd. Wonder what he didn't like about them.
 

Nuuska

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Hello

Late 70s or so I think Leo had a Martin-Lundberg - hope I remember the name correct - it was a Martin body with Lundberg neck - very long scale so it would not fit in regular guitar case. He ended cutting the headstock shorter with hacksaw leaving it 10-string - D&G without octave ( I have had my F212 10-string, too - but with full headstock...). He also had some experience with Bozo - he had tens of guitars at his home. Even a nylon-string w 12 strings.

Bozo made two 12-strings w 24 fret neck - one for Leo and one for Peter Lang - because of the long fretboard it had two soundholes to allow X-bracing - a quite interesting looking beast.

In one concert he demonstrated how he tamed the boom of Martin - at the end he pulled a pair of trousers from inside explaining, that for unknown reason they work better than towels or anything else.

Sometimes on a tour he stepped accidentally on a guitar so the back broke - he fixed it with duct tape and later - so he told me - he kicked another back in to verify . . . because that reduced the boom, too.

Since it is over thirty years ago I do not recall what he said about my Guilds - perhaps he liked them or if not, then he might have been polite - who knows - but I did hear him say something about other guitars and it was not always nice. So perhaps it was time when he was content with what he had and needed not search for anything else. Years later when he started with Taylor, he told me he had them send him a guitar - he tested it - in some cases he thinned the bracing himself - and if I recall it correctly they gave him a limit of ten to achieve the final guitar.

But all this was years ago - we have not been in contact for over 15 years.

Fond memories, though.
 
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Thanks everybody for help and lots of informations. I'm reading and searching so much in these days.
Just a question: on a mid '60 Hoboken F212, the bridge could be Brazilian rosewood or it is indian?
 

adorshki

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Thanks everybody for help and lots of informations. I'm reading and searching so much in these days.
Just a question: on a mid '60 Hoboken F212, the bridge could be Brazilian rosewood or it is indian?
(I assume you meant "mid-sixties"): I'd say about 99% probability Brazilian, no reason to use anything else at that time.
In fact they had stocks of Brazilian suitable for fretboards and bridges into the '70's even after the stocks suitable for backs/sides had been used up.
 
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Yes I meant mid-sixties. Sorry :smile:
So this could be a big problem, with CITES, traveling (I mean traveling whit the guitar, not shipping :smile:) from US to EU......
Any opinion?
 
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