My turn to start the guessing game

adorshki

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Well darn thought that WAS an S4ce...the one with the white pickguard, right?
Or was that an S100.....
oh well the memory's shot now....
I give up.

I came back.
It was a white S4ce Songbird.
Which was originally just an S4ce with HighGloss finish.
And optional color choices.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Guild-Songbird-1993-white-/183023291984
Auction ended 2/21/18.
What are the odds?
Actually, on close inspection, that listing shows a significant ding on upper right hand side of headstock which doesn't show up in Nuuska's photo.
I'm back to thinking it might be that white solidbody (?) the original poster though might be a re-fin, but I was sure was factory because "it just looked right."
Binding hadn't been painted over, for one thing.
But I can't remember what model it was.
Memory's shot again after that last 10 seconds of illumination before the battery dies.
 

Nuuska

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Adorshki is close - very close.

The history of this is unknown to me - the guy listing it in local musicians forum says he had it for about one year and that perhaps came from USA - so I looked at ended eBay listings, but could not find this one.

Another hint - in that previous discussion here weeks ago Italy was mentioned . . . . .
As of now - Schweiz - Nippon - Denmark - Canada - Monaco - Österreich - Hong Kong - plus some more
 
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Nuuska

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img_2917.jpg



A while back there was talk about a GREEN Songbird - at that time I said if I was italian, it would be nice if one could have a white one, too.

The labrador in the background is JYMY - he is two years four months tomorrow.
 

mavuser

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nice! those are 2 crazy rare colors. possibly the only one of each? ha, who knows. congrats!!
 

Nuuska

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Hello

Interestingly these two guitars are not quite the same size
Red is a bit larger than white

Following measurements are size of RED vs WHITE, where WHITE = 0
Body length +5mm
Width at hip +3mm
Width at waist +2mm
Width at shoulder +2mm
Overall length +2mm
Bottom to nut +2mm
Scale length -2mm
Total length +3mm


I read often on this forum "that´s Guild" - but I would assume that body carving with automated tools would yield more constant sizes - but what do I know...
 

fronobulax

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I read often on this forum "that´s Guild" - but I would assume that body carving with automated tools would yield more constant sizes - but what do I know...

One of the people I talked to at the New Hartford facility commented about how hard it is to keep wooden parts within tolerance even when using modern CNC machines. So those numbers might be within the "state of the art" a couple decades ago. It is also possible that post factory humidity changes might explain some of the differences. But "what do I know" also applies.
 

adorshki

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A while back there was talk about a GREEN Songbird - at that time I said if I was italian, it would be nice if one could have a white one, too.
So, did I win, or am I disqualified on a technicality?
(S4ce vs Songbird: Note they shared the same s/n sequencing for all but 2 years of production.
However, so did D4's and D25's for most of their runs and I do consider them to be distinct models, so...... )
The labrador in the background is JYMY - he is two years four months tomorrow.
S/N? :glee:

nice! those are 2 crazy rare colors. possibly the only one of each? ha, who knows. congrats!!
We know there's at least one other white one, the one with the white p/g, but don't recall seeing another red like that, looks like Fender's Torino Red.
Have seen 'em in Trans Red IIRC.

Hello
I read often on this forum "that´s Guild" - but I would assume that body carving with automated tools would yield more constant sizes - but what do I know...
Gonna take a wild guess it's all about the money and NC machinery was still in its infancy and expensive about the time that body method was conceived, it derived from George Gruhn's routed Nightbird body.
And then as Frono says, seems kind of pointless if the wood's subject to dimensional change even after routing.
Combine with the fact that production was probably too low to ever justify the cost, and that for the same reason it was possible to keep tweaking every individual guitar as it moved from station to station (cue David Bowie), as explained in an article in Guild Gallery #1.
Y'know I just noticed for the first time you have 3 Guilds bought new just like me....
:friendly_wink:
 
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adorshki

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so what Guild models are they?
Songbirds.
Based on S4ce's much the same as D4's were based on DS25's.
With Songbirds you got HG finish and optional colors (just like D25 vs D4 originally), not sure about hardware (gold vs nickel).
And much like D4's, later in the run by late '96 at least, S4ce's got an HG option, and colors, and even the Barry Gibb option, those were technically S4ceBG's.
Label on the one I showed on eBay (with chipped headstock) says "Songbird White", but I would like to know what Nuuska's says.
 
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Nuuska

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So, did I win, or am I disqualified on a technicality?

And then as Frono says, seems kind of pointless if the wood's subject to dimensional change even after routing.

Y'know I just noticed for the first time you have 3 Guilds bought new just like me....
:friendly_wink:


Hello

You win for being closest and most active :watermelon: :watermelon: :watermelon: - ( why do we not have a smiley with a wheelbarrow ? )

If they routed a bunch of bodies at one time - some slabs being dryer than others - not using them all at same time - thus allowing some shrinking before assembly and painting.
If the wood shrinks that much after the guitar was finished I would expect more visible marks in paint. Now it is just normal cracks and checking.

Actually there are those three new Guilds in my sig + the AA that I bought new and sold + the new Guild, that I promised to write about some weeks ago - maybe it is time to start writing . . .

When I do that I´ll update my signature. Promise.


Sort of strange - when I first laid my eyes on Songbird years ago I could not imagine nothing but natural top - the first red was sort of disappointment but I bought it while there was no natural available. Then when it came I quite quickly started to like the colour and now it feels way better than natural - so starting to lust after the white immediately after seeing first picture was only natural. Perhaps that is a good sign showing, that I am not too petrified despite of my age . . .
 

Westerly Wood

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Songbirds.
Based on S4ce's much the same as D4's were based on DS25's.
With Songbirds you got HG finish and optional colors (just like D25 vs D4 originally), not sure about hardware (gold vs nickel).
And much like D4's, later in the run by late '96 at least, S4ce's got an HG option, and colors, and even the Barry Gibb option, those were technically S4ceBG's.
Label on the one I showed on eBay (with chipped headstock) says "Songbird White", but I would like to know what Nuuska's says.

do you know how they sounded plugged in? i guess they would have not sounded great unplugged? but i bet are great thru am amp etc...

http://westerlyguildguitars.com/guitars/songbird.html

says it was one of the more popular A/E guitars during that time...:)
 

adorshki

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Hello

You win for being closest and most active :watermelon: :watermelon: :watermelon: - ( why do we not have a smiley with a wheelbarrow ? )

I feel so vindicated!! :glee:

If they routed a bunch of bodies at one time - some slabs being dryer than others - not using them all at same time - thus allowing some shrinking before assembly and painting.
I suspect they would have, it would be one way to economize on time as long as they had the jig set up, but also suspect they didn't do too many at a time.
"IIRC" Hans has mentioned before that a typical "batch" was 8 guitars or multiples thereof. (HANS IF YOU SEE THIS PLEASE CORRECT ME IF NECESSARY)
Seems to me that demand would be low enough to keep S4CE's down to 8 or 16 at a time.
If the wood shrinks that much after the guitar was finished I would expect more visible marks in paint. Now it is just normal cracks and checking.
In Westerly the wood was carefully dried and housed.
I'd swear I saw a reference to kiln-drying in the '96 or '097 catalog but can't find it right now.
Still, storage is specifically mentioned in this article about Willie Fritscher their wood selector for over a generation:
http://www.westerlyguildguitars.com/articles/woodselection.pdf
In counterpoint it's been mentioned before that one reason Fender didn't invest in upgrading Westerly was the sheer cost of converting the old factory to a climate controlled environment better suited for consistent quality.
The production floor was definitely subject to seasonal humidity variations.
So although I suspect the primary cause of those size variations is simply batch variation, yes it was possible for wood to expand and contract during production.
Final note is that "IIRC" many superstructures would be completed as a batch but might sit on a rack awaiting orders before being completed with hardware and finish colors.
That explained why some guitars with for example a 1967 s/ns got shipped with hardware that was introduced later on.
Sort of strange - when I first laid my eyes on Songbird years ago I could not imagine nothing but natural top - the first red was sort of disappointment but I bought it while there was no natural available. Then when it came I quite quickly started to like the colour and now it feels way better than natural - so starting to lust after the white immediately after seeing first picture was only natural. Perhaps that is a good sign showing, that I am not too petrified despite of my age . . .
 

Westerly Wood

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got to admit, kind of glad this one is over...
 

adorshki

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do you know how they sounded plugged in?
That's for Nuuska
i guess they would have not sounded great unplugged? but i bet are great thru am amp etc...
That's the general consensus.
There's video of Clapton with one he special ordered, and a duet with Knopfler playing one as well IIRC, maybe same show?
No time for search right now.
http://westerlyguildguitars.com/guitars/songbird.html
says it was one of the more popular A/E guitars during that time...:)
Yes but I think it got superceded by the "True Americans" that were more flexible for acoustic playing, the DCE's, and then the early '90's Fxxce's.
But fretboard/weight/body-size-wise a Songbird would feel almost exactly like a Nightbird or same-era Bluesbird so stage-swapping was probably "seamless" for the player.
 
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Nuuska

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Howdy

Label on RED - Model-Songbird-C - serial-KK000661 Tuners are Schaller - gold plating like new
Label on WHT - Model-Songbird-C - serial-KK000883 Tuners are Grover - gold plating faded

The sound - both are nice to play unplugged when you do not wish to disturb others - loud enough for player - quiet enough for family - the tone is nothing to write your mom about - a bit honky - not in catastrophic way... some resemblance to archtop. If I recall right the sound of my Duane Eddy unplugged was NOT this good - but it was long time ago.

Plugged in the sound is great when playing with other instruments and not expecting it to be F50R or any other high quality guitar, but only louder - it is not the same quality - but I like it a lot for what I do. I play mostly fingerstyle - with and without slide - open tunings and "normal".

It may have something to do with both - my liking of variety of music styles and sounds - being soundman and listening to all different bands with so many different musical angles. Songbird is kind of instrument of it´s own - it does not have to mimick any other guitar.

Necks are fantastic - easy to play - intonation is good.

Red has Guild Phosphor Bronze - on White is whatever came with it - still good strings - no reason to change - look more like brass alloy.


One more thing about wood shrinking - grain direction shrinks less than crossgrain - but the biggest difference of 5mm - a good 3/16 inch - was in grain direction - That´s Guild - sort of like : "I know - it´s only rock´n roll but I like it"
 
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