To Bisonic or Not to...

mellowgerman

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I always loved that Festival Express documentary. I have only ever streamed it online though so maybe the sound quality is better on the DVD? I could always hear Phil's bass, but it was never really a great representation of the tone... I always just assumed that it might be lackluster live recording methods, but maybe it was the digital compression of the video upload.
My favorite recorded Lesh tones (from what I have heard) were the Live in Bremen performance from 1972, which was the modified Starfire (big brown?) and actually a very early live set that I have from 1967(?)... which may have been the first unmodded Starfire? Either way, it's super chunky, gritty, and articulate
 

Minnesota Flats

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In reference to on-board pre-amps/filters etc.: I swapped pups/electronics into a Gibson ES-335 once and found the process to be so tedious that it pretty much soured me on fishing for/soldering stuff inside semi-hollows (except maybe those with gaping, Ibanez-style F-holes which, IMHO, are not very visually attractive). That's why I choose to keep my tone-shaping devices on the pedal board (if they're not available in the amp head itself). And then, of course, there's the whole issue of batteries to power active, on-board elements, which, at least to me, is another PIA I'd rather not deal with.

That's just my personal preference and far be it from me to criticize anyone who, whether in the interest of nostalgia or ease of on-the-fly tone tweaks or whatever chooses to go to the trouble to install electronics inside their SF. Back when Casady and Lesh stuffed all that circuitry into their SFs, pedals were pretty much limited to fuzz, wah, and volume (+ on/off foot switches to control amp-based effects like reverb and tremelo/vibrato): nowadays the variety of tone-shaping pedals available, even for bass, is truly daunting.

I freely admit that I'm not as gear savvy as many of you. So I'm curious to know why some of you would vouch for the simplicity of a single-pup SF and then choose to take the "on-board" electronics route with it's attendant, problematic complexity.
 

Happy Face

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In reference to on-board pre-amps/filters etcI freely admit that I'm not as gear savvy as many of you. So I'm curious to know why some of you would vouch for the simplicity of a single-pup SF and then choose to take the "on-board" electronics route with it's attendant, problematic complexity.

I'm sorta curious about this as well, But from the opposite side. Seriously, if you have a Guild or s
a modded bsss like ours, why do you need other types, unless for recording. Then borrow a Fender or Ricky. Or accumulate a collection like me.
 

fronobulax

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I freely admit that I'm not as gear savvy as many of you. So I'm curious to know why some of you would vouch for the simplicity of a single-pup SF and then choose to take the "on-board" electronics route with it's attendant, problematic complexity.

Well, I may be a vocal proponent of the single pickup but I am not an advocate of onboard electronics. For that matter my signal chain is simple as well. No pedals and once I'm happy with the amp the only things that changes is the pickup volume. But the fact that works may say more about what, where and how often I play :)

I seem to recall a Casady interview in which he said if the technology that is available today in pedals and offboard processing had been as portable and easy to use in the 60's and 70's he would have never cut up the Starfires in a quest for tone. For that matter it seems as he has come to the conclusion that low impedance is the way to go to get the sound he now wants at the beginning of his signal chain.
 

Minnesota Flats

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"I seem to recall a Casady interview in which he said if the technology that is available today in pedals and offboard processing had been as portable and easy to use in the 60's and 70's he would have never cut up the Starfires in a quest for tone."

Yes, and in the podcast posted recently by mellowgerman, JC relates the harrowing tale of having his on-board electronics go down (with no back-up bass present) in front of an audience of 30,000, which elicited serious stink-eye/grumbling from fellow JA band members and required a frantic on-stage un-stringing and partial bass disassembly/re-soldering which, fortunately, brought the instrument back to life.
 

mellowgerman

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Yes, and in the podcast posted recently by mellowgerman, JC relates the harrowing tale of having his on-board electronics go down (with no back-up bass present) in front of an audience of 30,000, which elicited serious stink-eye/grumbling from fellow JA band members and required a frantic on-stage un-stringing and partial bass disassembly/re-soldering which, fortunately, brought the instrument back to life.

Ironically I had this exact sort of thing happen with my Warwick StarBass that had an active John East filter preamp installed in it. Worked fine for a bunch of gigs, until one day, random failure. Luckily it was a home-town gig, where my bass tech experiments were a known thing, so the audience lovingly tolerated the mishap. The band was definitely more annoyed by the soldering iron coming out than the crowd in front of us. After 5 minutes or so of repair attempts, I just ended up finishing the gig with my buddy's Precision bass... strung with roundwounds -- yuck! ;) -- and tuned to standard (whereas I normally played one step down at the time and with flatwounds). To top it off, it was a very cold, outdoor Spring gig. Not the most fun gig I've ever played, but a funny occurrence and lesson learned in retrospect.
I've been back to passive electronics since, though it still hasn't deterred me from installing passive mid-notch filters, in which I have every bit as much confidence in terms of reliability as a standard tone control

*** I will mention, the above statement should not deter anyone from checking out or buying a John East preamp. The failure was due to an installation error. The preamps themselves are excellent tone-shaping tools, every bit as reliable as any other active preamp.
 
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I never go to a gig without a backup bass. Question remains unanswered anyone use the AXY Pickups and pre from Alembic.
 

edwin

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I never go to a gig without a backup bass. Question remains unanswered anyone use the AXY Pickups and pre from Alembic.

Everyone here knows what I think about modding Starfires and Alembic. My preference is SI or SII but I would also be interested in trying the pickups they just made for Harry that drop into the routs for post BiSonic Guilds. In fact, I'm curious about them for my Dark Star modified EB-3. It sounds pretty good, but not quite all the way there (it's a fine backup bass for the Starfire). It got better when I removed the buffers. I bet the Harry pickups would fit in there pretty nicely.

If no Series electronics, Anniversary electronics would be nice.
 

Happy Face

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Everyone here knows what I think about modding Starfires and Alembic. My preference is SI or SII but I would also be interested in trying the pickups they just made for Harry that drop into the routs for post BiSonic Guilds. In fact, I'm curious about them for my Dark Star modified EB-3. It sounds pretty good, but not quite all the way there (it's a fine backup bass for the Starfire). It got better when I removed the buffers. I bet the Harry pickups would fit in there pretty nicely.

If no Series electronics, Anniversary electronics would be nice.

Jam some filters into the EB-3! It'll be like my JS-II.
 

hieronymous

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Everyone here knows what I think about modding Starfires and Alembic. My preference is SI or SII but I would also be interested in trying the pickups they just made for Harry that drop into the routs for post BiSonic Guilds. In fact, I'm curious about them for my Dark Star modified EB-3. It sounds pretty good, but not quite all the way there (it's a fine backup bass for the Starfire). It got better when I removed the buffers. I bet the Harry pickups would fit in there pretty nicely.

If no Series electronics, Anniversary electronics would be nice.

"The Harry pickup" - I like it!

This is what he's talking about - Alembic came up with drop-in replacements for the Guild humbuckers - my set are the first, my early '70s factory fretless M-85 II was the template. They put mono Anniversary electronics in, so volume/filter/q-switch for each pickup.

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I think they are a huge improvement on the humbuckers - I liked the neck position humbucker but the bridge position barely added anything. They were really hot too, which could be cool but it was almost out of control, and probably contributed to the limited high-frequency range. I don't like to run passive pickups less than 100% most of the time anyway, so it could have been user error. But these Alembic pickups are active so you can play them at any volume and get the exact same frequency response and tonal character. But even though they are active, you can get nice old-school passive sounds. I feel like I'm getting a nice Precision-y sound with the neck pickup, then I can add in the bridge pickup for whatever high end I want - but remember, it's a fretless with flatwounds so I'm not going for a lot of high end, more some character for articulation.

If interested, contact Alembic! You can tell them I sent you.
 
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Thanks Harry, your response and Edwins' experience has been a real deciding factor for me. When I contact Mica I hope you dont mind if I ask for the "Harry" treatment :subdued:
 

hieronymous

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Thanks Harry, your response and Edwins' experience has been a real deciding factor for me. When I contact Mica I hope you dont mind if I ask for the "Harry" treatment

No problem at all! Best of luck with the instrument whatever you end up doing. I think another option would be keep the Bi-Sonic, add in a Novak at the bridge, and use an Alembic SF-2. Only problem with that is that the controls are in a rack instead of built into the bass.

Isn't Edwin's bass the coolest?
 

Happy Face

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Hieronymus - So cool you could nudge Alembic ⚗ to produce the Guild set!
 

hieronymous

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Hieronymus - So cool you could nudge Alembic ⚗ to produce the Guild set!

I don't think it was me - it was this guy:

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Dave Schools of Widespread Panic & Hardworking Americans. When this picture was posted on the Alembic Club forum people got really excited, myself included. It was after that that Mica suggested they use mine as a template. They've always got a Guild or two hanging out there at the Mothership.

EDIT: Actually, Dave Schools's bass aren't direct replacements (obviously) so mine are a little different. And of course, the original idea goes back to the early days with Phil Lesh & Jack Casady...
 

mgod

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Is there a recording of a particular tune that you think captures the EB-0 best? Would love to give it a closer listen

The album Skull**** is the easiest to hear. The way the tune kicks in after the drum break just roars.
 

mavuser

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I don't think it was me - it was this guy:

39648189785_64e2983e15_z.jpg


Dave Schools of Widespread Panic & Hardworking Americans. When this picture was posted on the Alembic Club forum people got really excited, myself included. It was after that that Mica suggested they use mine as a template. They've always got a Guild or two hanging out there at the Mothership.

EDIT: Actually, Dave Schools's bass aren't direct replacements (obviously) so mine are a little different. And of course, the original idea goes back to the early days with Phil Lesh & Jack Casady...

that is a great picture of Schools! is that his Starfire, or yours? ive been seeing Widespread Panic since 1992, have a picture of me and a friend with Schools from some Jerry Joseph show at like 4 oclock in the morning somewhere. he is super cool.

for anyone that has not seen the Schools Alembic bass, check this out-
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?191827-Alembic&highlight=dave+schools
 

hieronymous

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that is a great picture of Schools! is that his Starfire, or yours? ive been seeing Widespread Panic since 1992, have a picture of me and a friend with Schools from some Jerry Joseph show at like 4 oclock in the morning somewhere. he is super cool.

for anyone that has not seen the Schools Alembic bass, check this out-
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?191827-Alembic&highlight=dave+schools
It's his bass - I did own a Starfire I bass at one point but sold it - I had the issue where with my playing style the E string was hitting the pickup.

I've been seeing Widespread Panic for about the same length of time - my first show was seeing them open for Phish in 1990 at the Living Room in Providence RI (at my second ever Phish show!) - apparently he lives in Northern California now - exciting to see him playing Alembic now - would love to see/hear more of the Starfire!
 

fronobulax

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hieronymous - Noted your new profile pic and am amused that I could create a similar one. My bottle, consumed and now empty, came across the country with a friend and was kept for obvious reasons. The Starfire is a Starfire I, with original Bisonic. We obviously share some good taste, at least in basses, but this suggests that Great Minds Drink Alike. :)
 

mavuser

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It's his bass - I did own a Starfire I bass at one point but sold it - I had the issue where with my playing style the E string was hitting the pickup.

I've been seeing Widespread Panic for about the same length of time - my first show was seeing them open for Phish in 1990 at the Living Room in Providence RI (at my second ever Phish show!) - apparently he lives in Northern California now - exciting to see him playing Alembic now - would love to see/hear more of the Starfire!

oh man that is so killer. my first time seeing both bands was the HORDE tour in 1992. Houser is my all time number one player, that guy was the best ever. gone way too soon. Schools is also right in there with Phil and the others, he must be the best i've ever seen on bass. those guys were pretty locked in during the 1990s. I belive Schools played a Modulus bass back then. but honestly just like all the other great bass players, Schools just sounds like Schools no matter what he plays. That Alembic Moontimes bass he has though, is just crazy. that is the nicest one i've seen. one of Phils newer solidbodys comes real close to that, just a matter of taste at that point. i don't know how the Schools bass really sounds, but...what a creation!!!

I also heard a rumor, not sure if it is true, that he wound up acquiring a large part of Allen Woody's bass collection. which was (and still is), quite extensive.
 
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