To Bisonic or Not to...

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Hi all. I have been a bit of a lurker and usually get my questions answered on the search bar but I have a small dilemma. I am rehabbing a 67 SFI with a neck position hagstrom pup. I have already ordered an Alembic style brass bridge as I'm not a big fan of the Guild one and my next area of focus will be the pup's. I am a bit torn over weather to get the Alembic AXY pup's and preamp or another Bisonic/Darkstar and have it put in the bridge position. The bass currently sports either TI flats or Cobalt flats , I go back and forth. I play in a Dead Tribute band so the Alembic pup's are my first, obvious choice. But I do like the Bisonic sound and I understand the Novak Darkstar does a real good job blending with an existing Hagstrom. I'll be keeping the Hagstrom so I guess I can always reverse the mod, money is not to be a factor only sound. I know of at least 1 member who has installed the Alembics with series electronics (hi Edwin) but I'm not sure I want to spend quite THAT much. Any observations or comments on the difference between Bisonic design/sound and the Alembic route are appreciated. Oh, and don't worry I will photo document everything thoroughly :subdued:
 

fronobulax

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Welcome. Never heard an Alembic in person so, for once, I won't offer an opinion about something I don't know about :) I'm a big fan of the vintage Bisonic. If that is not possible (in spite of money not being a factor) the Novak is very nice. The specs for a vintage Bisonic and a Hammon Dark Star are different and a coil tap on a Novak gives you both, There is a difference (at least in a solid body) and I find I spend more time congratulating myself for getting the option than I spend wondering about which one is better.

I'm a little confused about reversibility. Are you adding a PU to a SF I, which suggests routing for another pickup plus holes for controls? If you go the Alembic way do you have to find a place for the preamp "on board"?

I'm not big on mods especially if something is working. I'd wonder about buying a Newark Street Starfire II and upgrading the PUs and bridge. As a SWAG you could sell the unmodified SF I to finance the project and still have some pocket change. Your bass, not mine, but I am curious about why you want a SF II and why you choose to follow the conversion path.

Looking forward to hearing and hearing about the results.
 

krysh

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welcome paulreside.
I had owned a 1966 sf1 that hat been modified with a neck bisonic what was supposedly done by rick turner who also probably had modified the pickups and shielding. it sounded awesome and very special. so special that after I split with the project I had bought it for I sold it again, because I had no other use for the bass. stupid or not, sometimes things have to go. anyway, I just bought a NS M-85 and though I couldn't compare both basses I am really impressed by the guild BiSonic replica after I experimented a bit with the height of the polepieces. this now has the same lovely gnarl as the old sf1 on the bridge but even sounds bigger but more probably because of the different body shape. so therefore I can recommend a new replacement Bisonic to try first, before spending much more money.
here a quick and dirty soundfile with fender 9050L flats, 1st two with pick next two fingered:
https://soundcloud.com/krysh/k-guild-m85-playthrough-180208/s-Tc2qP
 

mellowgerman

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I don't mean to complicate things, but another option would be asking Curtis to wind you a pair of his Bisonics to low-impedance specs and then pairing it with an Alembic filter preamp. I imagine it would have enough gain to boost the pickup signal up to normal volume, but if not and if money is no a big factor, I'm sure a conversation with the Alembic folks could get you into a customized preamp that does. It has been said by Casady and Lesh (as well as other insiders) that the low-impedance aspect was a big part of the sound
 

Happy Face

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I am confused. Are we talking about a bass with that little Hagstrom pickup in the neck?

I'm the idiot with a filtered up twin Darkstar bass with some fancy filters installed when Alembic failed to answer my emailed inquiries. But seriously .... Why bother?
 

fronobulax

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I am confused. Are we talking about a bass with that little Hagstrom pickup in the neck?

I'm the idiot with a filtered up twin Darkstar bass with some fancy filters installed when Alembic failed to answer my emailed inquiries. But seriously .... Why bother?

'67 so I am assuming the bass under discussion left the factory with a Bisonic in the neck position.
 

Happy Face

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I am confused. Are we talking about a bass with that little Hagstrom pickup in the neck?

I'm the idiot with a filtered up twin Darkstar bass with some fancy filters installed when Alembic failed to answer my emailed inquiries. But seriously .... Why bother?

Thanks Frono. What I meant to say in my snarky-sounding comment is that Phil Lesh played a number of different basses over the first 25 years so it is hard to figure what configuration makes sense from that perspective. . But it sounds like a fun project. Something our Mellow German would take on! Good luck and please keep us posted.
 

fronobulax

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Thanks Frono. What I meant to say in my snarky-sounding comment is that Phil Lesh played a number of different basses over the first 25 years so it is hard to figure what configuration makes sense from that perspective. . But it sounds like a fun project. Something our Mellow German would take on! Good luck and please keep us posted.

Not a problem. Confusion is my usual state. I find this an interesting project on general principles but I am a firm believer that hands are at least as important as equipment when it comes to tone. This is not a project I would personally undertake, which is why I am interested in how it goes for someone else.

Now if I really wanted to stir the pot, I'd ask what would mgod do if he played in a Dead Tribute Band? Use his Lesh Guild? His Alembic? His favorite Starfire? A different bass for every set? :)
 

Happy Face

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Or the EB-0 (3) with twin Bisonics that you see him playing on Festival Train.
 

mavuser

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I wouldnt cut up a SF-1. id sell it and buy a real Alembic, or get a solid body Guild JS-2 bass, and get the Alembic electronics. have fun, whatever u decide!
 

Happy Face

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I wouldnt cut up a SF-1. id sell it and buy a real Alembic, or get a solid body Guild JS-2 bass, and get the Alembic electronics. have fun, whatever u decide!

Makes sense. It is a lot less work to mod a JS-II than a Starfire.

I ended up using a ACG EQ01 filter pre-amp. I pondered using some sort of Alembic rig but no one responded to a couple of emails I sent them.

But my fault in some ways. When I was creating an Alembric (a Rickenbacker with Alembic pickups and preamps) they were helpful, once I called them via the old fashioned telephone.
 
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mavuser

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im not sure if it is worth going Alembic, unless you go straight to the top. it's an investment for sure. I would just never be satisfied if I invested some, and it did not sound just like the Series 1/Phil Lesh tones. best bet for the cash is a nice 1970s Starfire-2 bass or JS-2 bass with Curtis Novak pickups, each with a double-wind (not a coil split, but 2 separate points on the same coil), so each pickup can be "tapped" to Novak's Bisonic spec, as well as his Dark Star spec. (i really like his Dark Star tone on these new pickups) and they sound great on solid bodies as well as semi hollows. Last I checked those pickups were $275 each but that was a while ago. Still, nowhere near the investment of an Alembic, but it will sound like it is somewhere near that level of investment...

not to say an Alembic is not worth the money, it definetly is, if you are into the craftsmanship/artwork end of it, and/or getting paid to play music live and make records etc...dont cut corners though...they have the technology...
 

fronobulax

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Curtis Novak pickups, each with a double-wind (not a coil split, but 2 separate points on the same coil), so each pickup can be "tapped" to Novak's Bisonic spec, as well as his Dark Star spec. (i really like his Dark Star tone on these new pickups) and they sound great on solid bodies as well as semi hollows. Last I checked those pickups were $275 each but that was a while ago.

A Novak BSDS is still $275 but there was (and still is AFAIK) a charge for the coil tap which, in my case. let me toggle between a vintage Bisonic spec and a Dark Star spec. I remember $35 but don't know whether that was the charge (making it a $310 pickup) or or my mental shorthand for $335.
 
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I am confused. Are we talking about a bass with that little Hagstrom pickup in the neck?

I'm the idiot with a filtered up twin Darkstar bass with some fancy filters installed when Alembic failed to answer my emailed inquiries. But seriously .... Why bother?

812759162245379


Not sure my photo attached but it is a standard Bisonic in the neck position. I understand the position of purists but your tonal goals are obviously very different than mine.
 

mgod

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In my lofty opinion, Lesh's best tone was the EB-0 with two Hagstroms pickups (Skull**** era). The active component was a circuit which dropped the impedance. His second best tone was the Starfire with Turner pickups (Europe 72).
 

Happy Face

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In my lofty opinion, Lesh's best tone was the EB-0 with two Hagstroms pickups (Skull**** era). The active component was a circuit which dropped the impedance. His second best tone was the Starfire with Turner pickups (Europe 72).

Thanks Simian one. I did not realize there was some kind of filter-gizmo in that EB-0. It was a sharp looker as well.
 

mgod

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Thanks Simian one. I did not realize there was some kind of filter-gizmo in that EB-0. It was a sharp looker as well.

Not a filter. Just an impedance drop, formally a Darlington Emitter Follower circuit.

Had my hands on it 40 years ago. Indeedy a sharp-looker.
 

mellowgerman

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In my lofty opinion, Lesh's best tone was the EB-0 with two Hagstroms pickups (Skull**** era). The active component was a circuit which dropped the impedance. His second best tone was the Starfire with Turner pickups (Europe 72).

Is there a recording of a particular tune that you think captures the EB-0 best? Would love to give it a closer listen
 

Happy Face

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You can see and hear it on the Festival Train DVD (including the extras section) but I'll defer to Dan's judgement.
 

mavuser

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1970 was my favorite year for GD. i never realized how many different basses Phil had prior to the modded SF. I can't credit everything I hear to Phil's bass, but overall 1970 to me are the best overall recordings and best shows. As for the bass itself separate from the rest, ive heard a ton of what I know is that modded SF (post 1970) and that thing sounds ridiculously good
 
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