My great F512 Adventure

ClydeTower

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I've been looking far and wide for over a year now for a pre-owned NH F512 in mint condition. Nothing much out there until TXBumper sent me a link yesterday for a LIKE NEW 2014 New Hartford F512. Low and behold, there she was, listed for only a few hours. I immediately contacted the seller, did my due diligence, made an offer, received a counter-offer and boom... she was mine! I thought YES! I finally found that 12 string that's eluded me for months... but now comes the hard part, having my new found muse find its way to me. You see, the guitar is in Michigan and I live in Montreal. Here begins my great F512 adventure...

My 3 main concerns:

1. Buying the F512 sight unseen
2. Shipping the guitar in very cold weather
3. Crossing the border into Canada


1. Buying the F512 sight unseen:

This is the least of my concerns, however, there is always a risk when buying a guitar you haven't actually seen or played. Yes, the photos tell you some, but not all. What does reassure me is that the seller is a musician/collector and owns 15+ guitars among which are some pre-war Martins (which are also up for sale). So the guy knows his stuff, appreciates fine instruments and respects them. This in itself says to me I can trust that this F512 is the real deal.


2. Shipping the guitar in cold weather:

This is my biggest concern by a mile. If you think its cold in Michigan, you haven't been to Montreal. It gets really cold here like a gazillion below zero. All kidding aside, the forecast calls for temperatures in the teen's and 20's (F) over the next week. I've read a lot of posts in different forums about shipping guitars in cold weather. The majority of people say that you should let the guitar sit in its case for 24 hours before opening it, let it acclimate to your environment. This is easy and I will definitely do that, but what I don't control is the temperature during transport.

Does anyone here have any experience with shipping guitars in cold temperatures and do you have any recommendations (best practices, shippers to use, packing, etc.) ?

I wonder if the insurance from the shipper would cover any damage that would occur from the cold or if I can get insurance from my home insurer to cover this...


3. Crossing the border into Canada:

Everyone knows that crossing the border with a rosewood guitar is a big deal since Jan 2017. I've bought guitars before from the US and had them delivered to my door without issue. However, those days are gone. Most sellers in the states don't want to have to deal with the CITIES regulations, so shipping to Canada is pretty much out of the question. Because of the scarcity of pre-owed F512 in mint condition, I decided to include the US market in my search and deal with the headache of bringing it in if ever I do find one. So now that I've found one in Michigan, I've decided to have it shipped to a Border point warehouse in upstate NY and bring it across the border myself. Its about a 45 min drive for me, so not too bad. And from what I've read, CITIES regulations on East Indian Rosewoods are Appendix II and do not require an import permit to carry into Canada. That's the theory, in practice, we shall see...


So that's what's ahead in my F512 Adventure. I will post updates on my experience so that it may help others who attempt the same scenario. If any LTGers have any experience on cold weather shipping or carrying a rosewood guitar across the border into Canada, I would be really happy to hear from you.

Thanks!
 
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ClydeTower

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I had two nitro finished guitars shipped to Regina in the deep of winter (about -20C), one from Toronto (from Tundra actually) and the other from New York and both arrived with finish checking despite a 24h wait to open the box/case. I don't know if one was opened at the border or not. But both certainly traveled through a considerable range of temperatures. Maybe I should have waited 48h, as I think I may have seen cracks develop in one just as I opened the case, but maybe that was a mirage.

Dude, you're freaking me out!
 

ClydeTower

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Hey Clyde, Just a few tips for when you pick it up. I don't know what temps are like right now in Champlain, NY or where you live in Canada but if it is relatively cold you need to let the guitar Acclimate to the room temperature before opening the case. If you don't and there is a drastic change in temp you could shock the Nitro finish causing it to crack or check all over. If they are going to inspect the guitar at the border they need to inspect it in a similar temperature area as well. In other words if the guitar is in your vehicle and the heater in your car has the temp around 75 degrees you don't want the border agent to pull the guitar out of the car in 30 degree temps and open the case. This could lead to damaging the finish as the Nitro and the wood have different expansion and contraction rates. I know of more than one Guitar that has had the finish cracked by customs agents opening the guitar to inspect it in without letting it acclimate properly. With you F512 being in Like New condition it would be heartbreaking to have the finish damaged before you get it home. Just something to be cautious with and think about as you plan your pick up and return trip with your new baby.

Best of Luck!

TX

Thanks for the heads up.

I know, I'm kind of worried about it. Temperature's will be in the 20's (F) in the next few days. In your opinion, can cold temperatures alone during transport create cracks in the nitro finish?

If I leave the guitar in its case from the moment I pick it up, drive back to Montreal, and leave it for at least 24h at home before opening the case, do you think there's much risk for damage to the finish?

I'm gonna call the Canada Border Agency to know what to expect in this type of situation.
 

Cougar

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Major congrats on snagging that F512, Clyde! I'm not sure, but I don't think temperature alone is so much of a problem; rather, it's a sudden change in temperature. Best of luck in getting that baby home!

BTW, TX is such a resource on this board! Both of my Guilds were tipped off by TX postings.

I immediately contacted the seller, did my due diligence, made an offer, received a counter-offer and boom... she was mine!

Sounds just like the acquisition of my F-50R. No, actually, my first offer was accepted. Boom is right! Arrived safe and sound! I can't imagine any better 6-string....

f50r557.jpg
 

adorshki

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I know, I'm kind of worried about it. Temperature's will be in the 20's (F) in the next few days. In your opinion, can cold temperatures alone during transport create cracks in the nitro finish?
For sure we know temperature shock is one cause of checking but we've heard other reports of guitars arriving checked even though waiting period was observed, and I suspect that yes it's possible for nitro to get cold enough to crack from shrinking alone.
Maybe it can shrink more than the wood of the guitar itself?
Or maybe a different reason that still leads to the checking.
NCL's a lot like glass, and glass can still develop a crack from an existing flaw in the surface, even when slowly chilled to very low temps.
If I leave the guitar in its case from the moment I pick it up, drive back to Montreal, and leave it for at least 24h at home before opening the case, do you think there's much risk for damage to the finish?
I'm gonna call the Canada Border Agency to know what to expect in this type of situation.

While you're talking to 'em ask 'em if an "instrument passport" will expedite the crossing.
They may want some kind of verification it's not Brazilian, that's the one rosewood with the strictest import/export rules, and I can't recall what the personal exemption is if it's not pre-CITES Brazilian.
I suspect they'll want to open it no matter what, just to verify what's in the case, but it occurs to me maybe they can x-ray it.
If you explain your concerns regarding the finish issue maybe they have a solution for it.
In any case I think evidence of a concerned citizen attempting to do the right thing will go a long way with border authorities..
GOOD LUCK!!
(Seriously, no snark intended!)
 
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ClydeTower

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While you're talking to 'em ask 'em if an "instrument passport" will expedite the crossing.
They may want some kind of verification it's not Brazilian, that's the one rosewood with the strictest import/export rules, and I can't recall what the personal exemption is if it's not pre-CITES Brazilian.
I suspect they'll want to open it no matter what, just to verify what's in the case, but it occurs to me maybe they can x-ray it.
If you explain your concerns regarding the finish issue maybe they have a solution for it.
In any case I think evidence of a concerned citizen attempting to do the right thing will go a long way with border authorities..
GOOD LUCK!!
(Seriously, no snark intended!)

So I spoke to the Canadian Border Services Agency. They said that if the guitar is for personal use, I can bring it in no issues. Just need to prove the guitar was made in the US, is exempt from CITES regulations and to pay my taxes and be on my way. The paperwork needed:

- A bill of sale;
- Serial number and print out of the specs of the guitar from the Guild website to prove it was made in the US (NAFTA) to avoid paying duties and to prove it does not contain Brazilian Rosewood;
- The instrument passport is only valid once the instrument has been imported into Canada. It allows you to travel with your instrument with the least amount of hassle;

I also spoke to the Canadian CITES office and they said I don't need a import permit if I'm carrying the instrument in to Canada with me.

I called U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service about an export permit, but just get their answering service. I will call back but have it on good authority that an export permit is not needed in this scenario.


The only possible issue would be if the border agent wants to inspect it. I would therefore need to open the case and risk damaging the finish. The person I spoke to said to explain this to the border agent to find a suitable area to open the case. So what would be a "suitable area" ? I called the Kinek Border Warehouse where the guitar will be shipped to Champlain NY, they said their warehouse is heated but kept "cool" around 50-60F. So my plan would be to let the guitar acclimate to the warehouse temperature for 24-48 hours, drive down with a thermometer in my car and keep the inside of the car between 50-60F, transfer the guitar in its case to my car, drive to the border and have the agent inspect the guitar inside my car.

Whoa! This is like transporting some kind of rare vaccine for Ebola or something! :tongue-new:
 

adorshki

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So I spoke to the Canadian Border Services Agency. They said that if the guitar is for personal use, I can bring it in no issues. Just need to prove the guitar was made in the US, is exempt from CITES regulations and to pay my taxes and be on my way. The paperwork needed:

- A bill of sale;
- Serial number and print out of the specs of the guitar from the Guild website to prove it was made in the US (NAFTA) to avoid paying duties and to prove it does not contain Brazilian Rosewood;
- The instrument passport is only valid once the instrument has been imported into Canada. It allows you to travel with your instrument with the least amount of hassle;

I also spoke to the Canadian CITES office and they said I don't need a import permit if I'm carrying the instrument in to Canada with me.

I called U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service about an export permit, but just get their answering service. I will call back but have it on good authority that an export permit is not needed in this scenario.


The only possible issue would be if the border agent wants to inspect it. I would therefore need to open the case and risk damaging the finish. The person I spoke to said to explain this to the border agent to find a suitable area to open the case. So what would be a "suitable area" ? I called the Kinek Border Warehouse where the guitar will be shipped to Champlain NY, they said their warehouse is heated but kept "cool" around 50-60F. So my plan would be to let the guitar acclimate to the warehouse temperature for 24-48 hours, drive down with a thermometer in my car and keep the inside of the car between 50-60F, transfer the guitar in its case to my car, drive to the border and have the agent inspect the guitar inside my car.

Whoa! This is like transporting some kind of rare vaccine for Ebola or something! :tongue-new:
That's a great plan!
And appreciate the first-hand recap of how it works for a private individual bringing an instrument into Canada for personal use only.
I'm gonna ask a mod to add it to that thread about CITES regs, which was understandably locked to forestall possible acrimonious political commentary.
 
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Nuuska

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Hello from Finland

I only have answer for the cold part. My guitars have survived the flight from USA to Europe - the temperature at 10km is about -50°C ( around -60°F ?? ) - one has travelled with me through Siberia to Japan to end in MN and back to Finland. They are all fine. Just remember - when it arrives and the parcel is cold - take your time - no extreme hours are needed ( they do not hurt anything besides your anxiety ) - first let the box sit few hours on your porch if you have one, or in your living room - then take the guitar case out of the box and if the case is really cold or moist because of condensed water, wait for another hour. Then open the case and admire. If the guitar inside the box feels cold, then you better wait more before starting anything else.

My fine Guild guitars, that were bought in MN and flown over to here to suffer our winters and humidity changes since 1975 are all fine.

Remember - worst thing is ABRUPT change of temperature - not the cold.

Good luck with the guitar.
 

ClydeTower

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Major congrats on snagging that F512, Clyde! I'm not sure, but I don't think temperature alone is so much of a problem; rather, it's a sudden change in temperature. Best of luck in getting that baby home!

BTW, TX is such a resource on this board! Both of my Guilds were tipped off by TX postings.



Sounds just like the acquisition of my F-50R. No, actually, my first offer was accepted. Boom is right! Arrived safe and sound! I can't imagine any better 6-string....

f50r557.jpg

Love that burst F50r... In a perfect world I would have preferred a burst F512, but I'll take a mint New Hartford F512 natural any day of the week!
 

ClydeTower

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Hello from Finland

I only have answer for the cold part. My guitars have survived the flight from USA to Europe - the temperature at 10km is about -50°C ( around -60°F ?? ) - one has travelled with me through Siberia to Japan to end in MN and back to Finland. They are all fine. Just remember - when it arrives and the parcel is cold - take your time - no extreme hours are needed ( they do not hurt anything besides your anxiety ) - first let the box sit few hours on your porch if you have one, or in your living room - then take the guitar case out of the box and if the case is really cold or moist because of condensed water, wait for another hour. Then open the case and admire. If the guitar inside the box feels cold, then you better wait more before starting anything else.

My fine Guild guitars, that were bought in MN and flown over to here to suffer our winters and humidity changes since 1975 are all fine.

Remember - worst thing is ABRUPT change of temperature - not the cold.

Good luck with the guitar.

Thanks Nuuska for sharing your experience. Do you know by any chance if the guitars that you imported had nitro finishes?
 

txbumper57

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Love that burst F50r... In a perfect world I would have preferred a burst F512, but I'll take a mint New Hartford F512 natural any day of the week!

In a perfect world you could have one of each! :semi-twins: Personally I think you are going to be blown away by that New Hartford F512.

2012 F50R Burst and 2013 F512 Burst
8kcZOS.jpg



2014 F512 Natural w/DTAR and 2012 F50R Natural w/DTAR.
0bUycw.jpg


TX
 

ClydeTower

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In a perfect world you could have one of each! :semi-twins: Personally I think you are going to be blown away by that New Hartford F512.

2012 F50R Burst and 2013 F512 Burst
8kcZOS.jpg



2014 F512 Natural w/DTAR and 2012 F50R Natural w/DTAR.
0bUycw.jpg


TX

That's freakin amazing.
 

ClydeTower

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UPDATE- So my F512 is currently in TEMPERANCE, MI right know where its a balmy 46F. Its scheduled to arrive in CHAMPLAIN NY on Monday at 8PM. So if everything goes to plan, I would go to pick it up on Wednesday... counting the minutes!

Meanwhile, in preparation for my new baby's arrival, I've stated looking into strings and tunings. I know F512s usually come with D'Addario EXP38 10-47, however, I've seen a few people recommending swapping out the octave A string for a wound .20. Apparently this really beefs up the tone and sort of tames down the "jangle". Anybody here doing this ?
 

Nuuska

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Hello again

Just came back from gig about 100 miles away. Our lead singer plays Guild F-412, which travels in rear of the van and gets a bit cold and then stays in closed case while we build the stage. We have been doing this for about 20 years without any problems except once a short piece of binding at the headstock got loose. And that was in summer . . .

As for strings - I have always had wound octave A-string - the way it came from factory. Unfortunately I have no more original string set covers left to check the gauges. On my F-50R are Guild M-450 13-17-26-36-46-58 "Special Bronze Alloy Wound Medium Gauge" - and I vaguely recall the F-512 having about same set + octave strings. I found an old note, that I´ve written for heavy gauge: 14/14 - 18/18 - 29/10 - 39/20 - 49/25 - 59/35 - and those days - 1975 - it was recommended the guitar to be tuned D-G-C-F-A-D and I have my F-512 down to C-F-Bb-Eb-G-C - and it sounds like a church - I think John Fahey said that first . . .

So - definitively wound octave-A - maybe even wound octave-D - and try tuning it down - there is nothing to loose ( except for strings - pun intended ) but you might fall in love with that gorgeously big sound.
 

txbumper57

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As far as the Original Strings for a New Hartford F512 they were Daddario EXP38's from the factory which are 10-47 Coated Phosphor Bronze strings. If you don't like coated strings the equivalent uncoated set is Daddario EJ38's in the same 10-47 gauge. The New Hartford F512 was made to be played at standard pitch EADGBE tuning without issues. E,A,D, and G all have a light string that is one octave higher than standard while the B and E strings are the same octave as standard. I have some issues with my left arm strength from a bummed out shoulder so I use Daddario EJ41's on mine which are a 9-45 extra light gauge uncoated Phosphor Bronze set. The extra lights tuned to standard tuning play almost like an electric guitar while still providing plenty of volume and depth as well as a nice touch response when fingerpicked. I have never upped the gauge on the High Octave G string as it is plenty loud enough as it is.

Something you will find when you play the New Hartford F512 is that it has an Amazingly Balanced tone with tons of low end, strong mids, and Sparkling highs. It is so perfect the way it is that the thought of changing individual strings gauges never crossed my mind. I have also played my F512's in Drop D tuning as well as tuning the whole thing down half a step. When tuned down a half a step the F512 has a Wonderful Gritty deep tone to it. At standard tuning it sounds like 10,000 angels singing when you strum it.

Congrats again and look forward to hearing how it all turns out!

TX
 

GuildFS4612CE

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RCRsHdu.jpg



From another thread...I don't have the detail vision to read the low resolution image...your vision might be better.
 

jcwu

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My eyes tell me those are B-1250, but I think it might be shadows playing tricks, because all I can find online is the L-1250 set?
 

SFIV1967

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B-1250 is right for that set on the picture. The old B-1250 (already at FMIC times) were Light (010/010 013/013 024W/009 029W/013 039W/018 049W/029W):

The latest 2013 Guild L-1250 PB set was also Light but only 10-47 and different other strings as well: (010/010 014/014 023W/008 030W/012 039W/018 047W/027W). That is how NH shipped the 12 strings.

The latest Guild L-1255 PB set was a bit heavier: 0115/0115 015/015 022W/0085 027W/013 035W/017 047W/024W.

Ralf
 
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