Taylor’s new V class bracing.

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,197
Reaction score
11,813
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
Thanks for the report, Jane. I really appreciate the first-hand impressions. I'm sure if they did something different, and it sounded lousy, it never would have come this far, so there must be something to it. Can't wait to get my hands on one!!
 

shot put

Junior Member
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
96
Reaction score
11
Taylor has used "gimmicks" to sell guitars for years. The originals from late 70's and 80's were excellent guitars. I remember Bob Taylor telling me in'77 Namm show that Paul Simon played an 855. Don't know if it was true. They have "gimmicked" their guitars so that every model kind of sounds the same; they are beautiful but too thin or bassy. Ive owned several and never have kept them very long.
 

Westerly Wood

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
13,323
Reaction score
6,497
Guild Total
2
Taylor has used "gimmicks" to sell guitars for years. The originals from late 70's and 80's were excellent guitars. I remember Bob Taylor telling me in'77 Namm show that Paul Simon played an 855. Don't know if it was true. They have "gimmicked" their guitars so that every model kind of sounds the same; they are beautiful but too thin or bassy. Ive owned several and never have kept them very long.

yeah, same here, owned 3 over the years, only wish i had one back, a 1996 712. Pre-NT neck. that was a great guitar.
I do hear the older Lemon Grove Taylors are great dreads.

over the years i have grown to detest Martin and Taylor. mostly due to their low end models and using Nato wood etc. yeesh.
 

Nuuska

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
7,668
Reaction score
6,028
Location
Finland
Guild Total
9
Nuuska will appreciate this...they obviously have a great FOH engineer and pro equipment.

The guitar sounded fantastic...of course, Andy plays well...but the room is an engineer's nightmare.



:watermelon::watermelon::watermelon::watermelon::watermelon::watermelon::watermelon: - one for each day of the week . . .
Today, 05:46 PM
#22

shot put
user-online.png

MemberJoin DateMay 2013Posts69

Taylor has used "gimmicks" to sell guitars for years. The originals from late 70's and 80's were excellent guitars. I remember Bob Taylor telling me in'77 Namm show that Paul Simon played an 855. Don't know if it was true. They have "gimmicked" their guitars so that every model kind of sounds the same; they are beautiful but too thin or bassy. Ive owned several and never have kept them very long.​





If I was to try to fool people with anything like that - I would have superior pickup connected to wireless transmitter inside the guitar and pretend there was none. The receiver would naturally be at mixer. But I doubt it was like that - no no no !


But is that hall soundmans nightmare with a band - many are - or with single guitar, too? There are many rooms, where a single acoustic instrument sounds fine, but anything louder or plenty of bass is immediate disaster.

Either way - I am delighted to hear that Taylor can build fine guitar and my colleague was successful and did good job delivering.
 

AcornHouse

Venerated Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
10,213
Reaction score
7,206
Location
Bidwell, OH
Guild Total
21
William Cumpiano, who wrote the Bible on acoustic guitar construction, has posted about this.
I recently received the following inquiry from a reader: "Mr. Cumpiano, ... It would seem that the overwhelming majority of luthiers tend to favor the x-brace pattern attributed to C.F. Martin for their soundboards. There are, of course, variations on it from luthier to luthier, but the x-brace concept seems to stay pretty consistent.
Now, Taylor guitars is introducing guitars with what they call “v-brace technology.” From what I’ve seen in their promotional videos, it looks as simple in concept as it sounds: moving the intersection of the two largest diagonal cross members from roughly the center of the soundboard to the bottom-center of the soundboard, so that, instead of an “x,” they form a “v.” Taylor is boasting more volume and more sustain from this movement. I’m not trying to cast aspersions or judgment on Taylor Guitars one way or the other; I was just wondering if there really was as much benefit to the v-bracing as they would boast?
My initial concern would be that moving the intersection down to the bottom would take away from the structural integrity of the soundboard by putting more stress on the center seam. However, the braces on most archtop guitars are in more of an “A” shape, with the braces not even connecting, and archtops can be sound cannons, so I could very well be mistaken in my concern.
I was simply wondering if you had any opinion on it? Thank you."
I've been thinking a lot lately about this topic, so I responded: I haven’t heard the v-braced guitar, or have I seen how one looks five years after it’s first strung up. The main question to ask about it is (other than how it makes the guitar sound), how efficiently does it limit the bridge’s rotation under string tension? By "efficiently" I mean, can it succeed in permanently limiting rotation with minimally-adequate stiffness? Two veed baseball bats would do the job of limiting just fine. But what is the minimal cross-section and mass that will accomplish the same thing? After all, the soundboard needs to respond to the signal and it won't if it is rigid. The hard part: how to be sure it is minimally adequate!
As far as the impact of moving the intersection, that doesn't trouble me as it seems to trouble you: I don’t see the intersection as the most rigid part of the x: after all, its made of two deeply-notched beams. The up-notch x arm is ridiculously weak right at the intersection. It’s the brace arms that predominately carry the load, at least in my perception.
A lot can be said for the v-scheme in theory: It supports the load in a manner more aligned with its source. I’m actually thrilled that Taylor has invested in a new way of thinking about how stresses are resolved on the guitar and their certainty that a new way is viable frees the luthier community to dare explore new ways of solving the sound vs. structure paradigm. I for one intend to start exploring right away.
The X was only one, early solution to the problem of how to just adequately support 180 lbs. of tension dumped onto an eighth-inch sheet of spruce. To say it’s the only solution possible is akin to believing your religion is the only possible one.
 

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,197
Reaction score
11,813
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
I don't know that I'd categorize new technology and a willingness to challenge the status quo as a "gimmick". That implies there's some sort of TRICK or PLOY involved and I don't think it's fair to Taylor to dismiss them that easily. I will look and listen to the new technology and form an opinion.
 

Westerly Wood

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
13,323
Reaction score
6,497
Guild Total
2
I don't know that I'd categorize new technology and a willingness to challenge the status quo as a "gimmick". That implies there's some sort of TRICK or PLOY involved and I don't think it's fair to Taylor to dismiss them that easily. I will look and listen to the new technology and form an opinion.

true, i would not say gimmick either. I think Bob believes in what he has achieved. I sure would like to play a Lemmon Grove dread one day, I hear they are awesome!
 

Quantum Strummer

Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
2,382
Reaction score
118
Location
Michigan
Two of the best (to my ears) acoustic guitars I've ever played were small ladder-braced 1930s Gibsons. Punchy, even barky, sound. Shoulda bought one of 'em!

My Taylor 512C (Nancy Griffith model) is 22 years old now and has aged very nicely. Still has its crisp high end but with a little more midrange oomph. A fingerpicker's guitar.

-Dave-
 

tommym

Member
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
894
Reaction score
315
I have friends who will only buy Taylor guitars with an NT neck. They got tired of haggling over the costs of neck resets with the other types of neck joints; especially the ones where the exterior finish comes into play. For some of us, finding a local luthier that is competent in handling all the different types of neck joints / finishes is becoming harder to find. Add to that that some of the manufacturers will not release their process of properly undoing and resetting their necks. You think because you are a luthier that all of the guitar manufacturers are going to be cooperative with you; think again. Also, with the high cost of many of these guitars, shipping out of state is really not a viable option, as too much can go wrong during the shipping process itself.

I recently sold one of my Taylor 555 twelve strings (Sitka / Mahogany / non NT neck), and didn't find it to be inherently superior sounding to the newer larger bodied Taylors of similar construction with the NT necks. Nor was it inferior in sound to my friend's Guild 212XL. The all had their own nuances; all good.

I have one friend who won't touch or talk about anything but his high end Martin custom shop guitars; his daughter has and much prefers her Taylor 812ce! I've had the privilege of playing many of his high end Martin custom shop guitars, but like his daughter I think the Taylor 812ce would be a more fitting match for me and my lifestyle.

I look forward to future Taylor innovations......


Tommy
 

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,197
Reaction score
11,813
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
If you really don't like them that's fine, but be careful about bashing a brand of guitars because of a personal bias. Not everyone has your ears (thank goodness)! And as I've said before, I like Taylor guitars. I don't like ALL Taylor guitars. But you can repeat those two sentences and substitute Martin, or Gibson, or Guild or ANY brand........
 
Last edited:

mario1956

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
460
Reaction score
13
Location
Chelsea, Alabama
I have two Ovations that have A bracing which is just the V bracing turned upside down and a small lateral brace under the bridge instead of bridge plate (O's have pinless bridges). They are my best sounding and loudest Ovations (compared to the other ones which have X braces). One guitar was built in 1975 and the other in 1980. Both tops have deflected a very small amount even with the fact that Ovation tops are graduated towards the end block to about .095". Ovations being Ovations is comparing apples to oranges with Taylors, but the unique bracing style has not hurt the tops on my guitars. Just giving a compare for what it is worth........
 

CocoaPicker

Junior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2018
Messages
50
Reaction score
3
Location
Brevard County, Florida
I give them credit for trying all these things. Most builders, the big factory ones anyway, just build them the way they always have been built. I think too many players and builders are afraid of going outside the box of "normal" guitar building. [...]

Definitely. Some years ago, I had the pleasure of spending a bit of time with the late Michael Kasha. His guitar designs were polarizing, as I later learned, but no progress is ever made without taking some risks and upending tradition. Fascinating fellow.

I will say that my Powers-designed Taylor 614 sounds nothing like the way I would expect a maple guitar to sound. He’s definitely the man to take the company to the next level. So far, it seems to me that his contributions have increased playability and responsiveness without messing too much with timbre. Sometimes, though, I wonder if he might be secretly plotting to ease their products away from the signature Taylor sound, putting his own stamp on the line.
 

JohnW63

Enlightened Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
6,293
Reaction score
2,217
Location
Southern California
Guild Total
4
I have always been puzzled by companies with the obvious know-how to build guitars with more than one method and more than one sound NOT breaking out and doing just that. Just have two model lines. One that sounds like their signature tone and another that harkens a lot more toward their competitors product. Wouldn't that expand the market for THEIR brand rather than making people decide on another brand ?
 

kostask

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
484
I had a Gibson Mark 53 and a Mark 72. They made a lot of changes to the guitar, not just the bracing. In the end, it was pretty much a wash versus regular guitar bracing. No better, and as good as most "average" guitars. Certainly not a major advance.

They messed with the bridge as well, making the bass side wider/taller. with a very odd, wide saddle.
 

kostask

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
484
this bracing sort pf brings to ming acoustic archtop bracing., with the addition of finger braces at the lower bout. From a theoretical point of view, this new Taylor bracing will probably lead to a very mid-rangy, barky,sound with somewhat reduced sustain. However, I will reserve judgement until I have heard one.

There is a lot of talk about sustain and volume, but the tone, especially in the bass region is not mentioned.

Again, without seeing one in person, I would have a concern about bridge plate support.
 
Last edited:

Butch

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
91
Reaction score
12
Location
St. Petersburg
Ok, let me preface this by apologizing in advance to anyone who reads this that owns a Taylor. My intent is not to offend anyone. I own over 30 guitars. I have played countless Taylor Guitars and I have to say that with the exception of one that I played about 10 years ago, I have been consistently disappointed. I know that they are unbelievably popular and their pick up system makes them sound great when amplified,but, unplugged, acoustically, they just don’t seem to have “it”. Personally, I think that they really needed to develop something to improve their unamplified sound.
 

merlin6666

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
1,173
Reaction score
305
Location
Canada .... brrr
My luthier and a friend (who has/used to have several Taylor guitars) attended NAMM and when I asked them about the show and then about the Taylors they had to think for a bit before they clued in what I was talking about. Anyway, they had visited the Taylor booth and said the examples sounded very nice though not particularly memorable, but at the same time they were concerned about the long term stability of the tops (which remains to be seen).
 

Westerly Wood

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
13,323
Reaction score
6,497
Guild Total
2
Ok, let me preface this by apologizing in advance to anyone who reads this that owns a Taylor. My intent is not to offend anyone. I own over 30 guitars. I have played countless Taylor Guitars and I have to say that with the exception of one that I played about 10 years ago, I have been consistently disappointed. I know that they are unbelievably popular and their pick up system makes them sound great when amplified,but, unplugged, acoustically, they just don’t seem to have “it”. Personally, I think that they really needed to develop something to improve their unamplified sound.

actually, from my experience with Taylors over the years, they sound less than good plugged in. A K&K mini in a Taylor dread is a great thing!

Taylor's have the best necks however, I always marvel at their playability. Just pure genius, IMHO.

and I hear their hog top dreads, I think it is the 322? sounds great. I played a Taylor Adi top/maple b/s a few years ago and was blown away by the tone, but the price was just too high. turns out, I should have bought that Taylor vs the Cruz. All well...
 

ClydeTower

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Messages
585
Reaction score
7
Location
Montreal
In my experience with Taylors, they are the best gigging guitars cause they sound amazing when plugged in and they’re really comfortable to play. They also record really well. I have some high end and entry level Taylors and they sound quite different from one another. I would say that high end Taylors are on par with anything at the same level from Martin, Gibson or orhers builders. You either like the Taylor sound or you don’t, just as you either like the Guild sound or you don’t.

I am looking forward to trying the new V braced guitars. Will it be as revalutionary as the NT neck?... time will tell.
 
Top