Gibson not attending NAMM 2018

twocorgis

Venerated Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
13,923
Reaction score
6,520
Location
Lawn Guyland
Guild Total
18
I am awaiting the arrival of a Gibson from the opposite end of the historic pipeline.

Circa 1930 L-0, one of the earlier flattop, X-braced guitars Gibson made. This is the all-mahogany version of the L-00, built before the advent of 14-fret instruments.

It is so old, it has "The Gibson" script logo on the headstock.

Congratulations Neal!

I have a few friends that covet those old small body Gibsons, and the real old time guys even seem to prefer the ladder braced examples. The X braced ones I've seen were super light and resonant, and I hope yours is a keeper.
 

bobouz

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
2,228
Reaction score
1,827
Whether he was let go or whether he retired is usually never divulged with high-level executives. We're not ever really going to know what was said between Henry J. and Ren.

I doubt that Ren was let go - my guess is he simply left on his own terms. In interviews, Ren has discussed having multiple up & down periods at Gibson, usually corresponding to a change in the management team. Perhaps another change was on the horizon, or had already occurred, and he felt it was time. It just seems unlikely that he was truly looking to retire, as witnessed by the fact that he left the comfort of home & jumped into the fray with Fender/Guild on the east coast, and then again on the west coast with Cordoba/Guild.

Ren was clearly a primary force behind the resurgence of Gibson acoustics, and a wonderful ambassador for the product. If Henry had truly valued retaining his services, my guess is that a proper offer for someone of his stature would have kept him in the fold.

From the comfort of my armchair quarterback seat, I would say the final cards to be played were in Henry's hands, rather than a management team. It appears that in the end, nothing of major consequence happens at Gibson without HJ's involvement & approval.
 
Last edited:

bobouz

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
2,228
Reaction score
1,827
If I ever buy a Gibson it will be a vintage 1920's A-style mandolin.

Can't go wrong with one of those. In the late '70s, I purchased a 1919 'A' and had it for many years. This was pre-truss rod, and eventually it needed a neck reset, which I was too cheap to do. Traded it off & missed it terribly.

But with instruments you can often go back in time, so about seven years ago, I found the 1922 'A' which I currently have. This was the first year of the adjustable truss rod (a few were installed at the end of 1921), and it's just as sweet as can be (it was also the front end of the Lloyd Loar era, which typically impacts retail value). I love the fact that a ninety-six year old mandolin can remain totally relevant in today's music.

Anyway, one thing to be aware of is that the necks were significantly wider before the truss rod came along. Pre 1922 reinforcement was provided by a V-shaped strip of maple, hidden from view under the ebony fretboard.
 

DrumBob

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
1,114
Reaction score
1,138
Location
northwest NJ
Nothing will improve at Gibson until Henry J. steps down or sells the guitar division, which seems to be the logical move at this point. Employee morale is in the toilet, and the result is shoddy workmanship in many cases from employees who just don't care anymore.

Their refusal to appear at NAMM is an indication that a selloff of Gibson may be imminent, and I would welcome it. They have consistently misjudged their market, consistently forced unwanted changes down the public's throats, and have sullied a once proud name. You can still find well made Gibsons, but you have to try many to get the best ones.

Vintage Gibsons are looking better and better.
 

davismanLV

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
19,197
Reaction score
11,815
Location
U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
Guild Total
2
From the comfort of my armchair quarterback seat, I would say the final cards to be played were in Henry's hands, rather than a management team. It appears that in the end, nothing of major consequence happens at Gibson without HJ's involvement & approval.
When EGO & POWER meets TALENT & SKILL.... it's usually a truly unsatisfactory result. Sad for Gibson. I'd hate to see the brand dissolve but, they're already almost there. Why shouldn't their employees and fans still be their best supporters?? Wow.....
 

dreadnut

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
16,082
Reaction score
6,442
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Guild Total
2
"...Close your eyes and choose with your ears and hands."

If you do that with a Gibson acoustic, you'll miss all the workmanship flaws. That's where I start, with a thorough visual inspection. Flaws on a new guitar? Not worth playing.
 

richardp69

Enlightened Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
6,007
Reaction score
5,965
Location
Barton City, Michigan
I haven't bought a brand new Gibson recently (maybe not ever, I can't recall) but did pick up 2007, a couple 2015's and a 2017. I went over them pretty good and see no sign of inferior workmanship or anything like that. Maybe I was just lucky but I find them to be really nice guitars.

There are no music stores of note anywhere near me so everything I buy is on the net, primarily Reverb and once in a while Ebay. I look at the pics, ask for more if needed and ask lots of questions. I think in all the years I've been doing this, I remember 2, maybe 3 that were just not good sounding guitars.
 

chazmo

Super Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
25,466
Reaction score
7,123
Location
Central Massachusetts
[. . .] Employee morale is in the toilet, and the result is shoddy workmanship in many cases from employees who just don't care anymore. [. . .]
I would like to counter this argument a bit. The guys I met in New Hartford had essentially lost their home-town team (Ovation) to overseas manufacturing when Fender came in in 2008. These hardy New Englanders understood all too well that despite any misgivings about company management and direction they were LUCKY to be able to continue to build guitars and practice their craft. The harsh reality here is that it's a tough international business now, and I give the shop workers a lot of credit for coming to grips with that.

I'm not saying morale doesn't affect people's decisions, but in my experience it does not lead to better or worse products. I'm also not saying that Guild's situation in New Hartford is/was the same as Henry J.'s dictatorial management of Gibson... but, you see my point, right?
 

walrus

Reverential Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Messages
23,957
Reaction score
8,019
Location
Massachusetts
I'm not saying morale doesn't affect people's decisions, but in my experience it does not lead to better or worse products. I'm also not saying that Guild's situation in New Hartford is/was the same as Henry J.'s dictatorial management of Gibson... but, you see my point, right?

Actually, I'm with DrumBob on this. I think poor morale absolutely affects product quality, and customer service - perhaps service even more so. If you feel underpaid, underappreciated, that management is taking the company on the wrong road, if management is taking bonuses while cutting jobs and/or salaries, etc, etc, etc, - the list goes on - it affects your job quality. I'm not saying Gibson has all these problems, just listing some common issues that will affect morale.

walrus
 

twocorgis

Venerated Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
13,923
Reaction score
6,520
Location
Lawn Guyland
Guild Total
18
Actually, I'm with DrumBob on this. I think poor morale absolutely affects product quality, and customer service - perhaps service even more so. If you feel underpaid, underappreciated, that management is taking the company on the wrong road, if management is taking bonuses while cutting jobs and/or salaries, etc, etc, etc, - the list goes on - it affects your job quality. I'm not saying Gibson has all these problems, just listing some common issues that will affect morale.

walrus

Absolutely agree too. That was why Martin's QC was so poor in the '70s. Sadly, poor employee relations has been a fact with Gibson ever since Henry J took over in 1986, and was predominant in the Norlin era (1970-1983) as well. I don't think that Gibson made a single good acoustic guitar in the Norlin years.
 

Default

Super Moderator
Platinum Supporting
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
13,596
Reaction score
3,008
Location
Philly, or thereabouts
Guild Total
11
Go to Glassdoor.com and look at the comments about Gibson. Low pay, abusive management, unrealistic production goals and draconian punishment for not meeting them make it amazing that everything isn't a pos.
 

K.O.M.A.

Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2012
Messages
467
Reaction score
17
Location
Gulf Breeze, Florida
I'll chime in here. Looking at the three Gibson Les Pauls sitting in the rack next to me I can honestly say I love all three of them. Two of them are dreaded Norlin era guitars and are both tone beasts. I recently bought a brand new Traditional and I can honestly say that it's the best electric guitar I've ever owned...period. No finish issues, the frets were perfect and it stays in tune just fine. AND the set up was perfect. I also just bought a Heritage 535 after selling a NS Starfire that just didn't do anything for me. I did an A-B with a Gibby 335 and the Heritage and basically bought the Heritage because I liked the color better, not because there was anything wrong with the 335. It was perfect also. I'm on several forums and see a lot of "my neighbor's cousin's boyfriend's Gibson sucked" but I think most of it is BS. I HAVE played Gibson acoustics that were just OK, that's why I will always have my Guild JF-30. I think Henry is a tool. He's also either the biggest idiot in the world or the smartest. Let's see how this NAMM decision affects sales. The "end is near" mentality might have people running out to buy a new Gibby while they still can, who knows. And remember folks, if Gibson guitars do go the way of the dinosaur, a lot of Americans will lose their jobs, and no matter how much you dislike Henry, you gotta feel bad for his employees. Just my opinion
 

Quantum Strummer

Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
2,382
Reaction score
118
Location
Michigan
"...Close your eyes and choose with your ears and hands."

If you do that with a Gibson acoustic, you'll miss all the workmanship flaws. That's where I start, with a thorough visual inspection. Flaws on a new guitar? Not worth playing.

Oh, of course. Start off by weeding out guitars with obvious issues. But I was referring to the headstock logo. Given a well-made instrument, do your best to ignore the brand name and choose based on sound and feel. That's how I ended up with my first Guild in fact.

-Dave-
 

bobouz

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
2,228
Reaction score
1,827
That was why Martin's QC was so poor in the '70s.
I don't think that Gibson made a single good acoustic guitar in the Norlin years.

Generalizations with broad brush strokes tend to miss the fact that some excellent instruments were still being produced during down periods.

Back in the day, I traded off my late 70s Guild F-40 for an absolutely stellar 1970 Martin 00-18, which I played for twenty+ years. Same with an early '70s Gibson Dove and Heritage Custom, which were both very satisfying guitars.

Similarly, discounting today's Gibsons because some have finish flaws, etc, will miss the fact that many have no flaws whatsoever, and again, may be stellar instruments.

Based on a number of member statements on the Martin guitar forum, one could be quite concerned about the fact that quite a few 2-5 year old Martins have already needed neck resets. If I were currently in the market for a Martin, I'd be researching this very thoroughly, but I also realize that Martin is still making some extremely fine instruments.

So it goes in the world of production line guitars.
 

twocorgis

Venerated Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
13,923
Reaction score
6,520
Location
Lawn Guyland
Guild Total
18
Generalizations with broad brush strokes tend to miss the fact that some excellent instruments were still being produced during down periods.

Back in the day, I traded off my late 70s Guild F-40 for an absolutely stellar 1970 Martin 00-18, which I played for twenty+ years. Same with an early '70s Gibson Dove and Heritage Custom, which were both very satisfying guitars.

Similarly, discounting today's Gibsons because some have finish flaws, etc, will miss the fact that many have no flaws whatsoever, and again, may be stellar instruments.

Based on a number of member statements on the Martin guitar forum, one could be quite concerned about the fact that quite a few 2-5 year old Martins have already needed neck resets. If I were currently in the market for a Martin, I'd be researching this very thoroughly, but I also realize that Martin is still making some extremely fine instruments.

So it goes in the world of production line guitars.

I guess I should rephrase that to "I haven't played a single good acoustic from the Norlin era", and I have played a bunch of them. I know there's exceptions to the rule, but this was a time that Gibson was going to super heavy builds and ladder bracing so they wouldn't have warranty claims. On the Martin side, I owned a '76 D28 that I could never get proper intonation out of. Finally gave up and sold it, and swore I'd never own another Martin. I'll say that I'm glad I don't follow my own advice!
 
Last edited:

richardp69

Enlightened Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
6,007
Reaction score
5,965
Location
Barton City, Michigan
Well said. Absolutes are very dangerous I do believe, be it guitars or anything else.


Generalizations with broad brush strokes tend to miss the fact that some excellent instruments were still being produced during down periods.

Back in the day, I traded off my late 70s Guild F-40 for an absolutely stellar 1970 Martin 00-18, which I played for twenty+ years. Same with an early '70s Gibson Dove and Heritage Custom, which were both very satisfying guitars.

Similarly, discounting today's Gibsons because some have finish flaws, etc, will miss the fact that many have no flaws whatsoever, and again, may be stellar instruments.

Based on a number of member statements on the Martin guitar forum, one could be quite concerned about the fact that quite a few 2-5 year old Martins have already needed neck resets. If I were currently in the market for a Martin, I'd be researching this very thoroughly, but I also realize that Martin is still making some extremely fine instruments.

So it goes in the world of production line guitars.
 

marcellis

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
1,734
Reaction score
3
Location
redneck riviera
I am with you have a few USA series (meaning not custom shop) Les Paul Jrs and Melody Makers. paid less than newark st. prices for most of them. kinda started hoarding them had to sell a few ha. still have several.

Yup. I got a 2017 Les Paul Faded T in exchange for a defective Newark Street SF III. I never wanted an LP. Never was interested in them. But when I saw the prices - I decided to give it a try. I noticed they also held their resale value pretty well.

The LP was $200 cheaper than the SF III - retail. So I also got a $200 credit into my Sweetwater account when I exchanged it. It's by far my best-sounding electric. Love the 490 R&T. Surprisingly, I can almost get an acoustic flat-top sound.

Love the action. Lower-priced Gibson USA offerings can be some real bargains.

As far as NAMM goes? IDC.
 
Last edited:

dreadnut

Gone But Not Forgotten
Gone But Not Forgotten
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
16,082
Reaction score
6,442
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Guild Total
2
A common response to defective products is "Where was Quality Control?"

And like I often reminded people when I was a Quality Manager: "You can't inspect quality into a product."
 

mavuser

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
8,128
Reaction score
2,636
Location
New York
getting lots of texts from vegas. Gibson has all guitar stuff there. not much electronics from the sounds of it, just some phillips headphones for the guitars. no video games/guitar hero.
 
Top