Guild F20 Neck Reset

Kitarkus · Dec 28, 2017

I looked at these photos again....of course because that F-20 is an object of my lust. Obviously you should trust your credible luthier to advise you. That said...in your photos...it sure looks like you have an abundance of saddle remaining. That saddle height doesn't mean that you do not need a reset.....but it tells me that it is unlikely that the guitar has been previously heavily modified with attempts to lower the action. It could be possible to get the action to acceptable levels without a major surgery which would be fantastic. I'd trust the person who will be performing the repair(s) and good luck on a great looking F-20.

mavuser · Dec 28, 2017

that thing is looking pretty nice to me, good luck getting it for $500-$600...if u are able to somehow pull that off while this particular F-20 is also listed on Reverb, that would be the equivalent of a "Christmas Miracle!" wave the cash in the face live and in the flesh, hey you never know.

that particular veneer of Brazilian RW headstock overlay is crazy!! look at that! also like I said the bridge is beautiful Brazilian RW (definitely do not alter it!), but the later shape/style- of which many, or possibly most, are typically EIRW. It also has the "Hoboken" truss rod cover...but those later tuners, and serial number 57,xxx... all of these features together are quite transitional. This one is short scale, right? i like it.

keep in mind I have full faith, confidence, and credibility in several professional luthiers and guitar technicians, at this point. A neck reset on a vintage Guild is a major league professional job. even so, things can still go "not as planned" and in those scenarios, the character and ethics of the luthier will come into play- as another forum member learned recently. I am like you, if it is meant to be, it will be...with or without the unexpected surprises that may come along later. If I decide to go for it, I just don't look back. so far, i've been lucky. even refinishing and other cosmetic repairs...they just need to be done right.

the Oxnard M-20 is a great guitar, I have personally played a couple. but it will sound quite different from a 1971 F-20 (will sound a lot like a 1971 M-20!), and with a 1.75" nut width and baseball bat neck profile (and satin finish for that matter), the Oxnard M-20 will feel and play completley different than a 1971 F-20.

if you can buy the F-20 and have it successfully professionaly restored (sounds like your luthier is a safe way to go so far), without issue/drama, and it stays in the cosmetic condition it is currently in, in the neighborhood of $1,500-$1,800 total...vs. a new Oxnard M-20 for $1300-$1,400...it just depends what sound and feel you are going for. The M-20 will just be a player acoustic in its purest form- you will never make any money reselling this guitar during your own lifetime, if you buy one brand new- likely quite the opposite, if anything. this can actually be a good thing, psychologically- gig it, travel with it, warrantee it...share its soul. The 71 F-20 was made to be played for sure, and it should be, but that thing is pretty clean, and while I would never suggest holding back with *any* F-20, this one might be considered investment quality to some, cosmetically. can still use it for anything you want, its just going down a different road than a new M-20.

and yes I also question whether or not this F-20 needs a neck reset at this time at all, a completley different topic.

swiveltung · Dec 28, 2017

Bender said:
Thanks for the insight guys! Well I've heard back from Rick, and he gave a pretty stellar low down the best he could through the pics without getting hands on her yet...I passed this reply on with the luthier's email to the seller explaining whats up and how If he could find a way to part with her at a price to reflect the necessary work needed to get her ready for another few decades & in studio player shape, otherwise I totally understand if he wants to hold out for a buyer willing to pay the full price....

---------
Yes, those old Guilds have an almost untapered dovetail neck joint. This makes their neck really hard to extract compared to Martins and Gibsons. And it looks like the action might be around 8/64" at the octave on the 6th string, so its probably time. Unless you can remove 1/16" from the saddle height.

I recently sold a 1962 F20 and recall their frets are quite short in height. This means there is not much material to file down to make fret tops level after the neck reset. The other issue is Guild finishes their guitars with the neck glued in. Plus they often over inject glue into the neck pocket. This means the glue oozes out of the dovetail pocket and around to the side. This makes neck removal damaging to the side surfaces.

If all goes well the Guild neck could get removed and refitted and reset for $400 or so. But there may need to be some slight finish touch up or extensive touch up added because the finish has to be cut thru to help separate the neck . There also might be more than the typical $50 to dress and recrown the frets over the body join. Worst case you will have to fully refret the whole neck ($400). Also, we might (usually) need to replace the bone saddle too.

A $1000 charge for all of this is possible but usually a couple hundred less.

Those are great old guitars.

---------------------------------------------

So its sounding like you guys who have a similar age F20, and from my guy Rick here, that it's probably about time for a reset. The seller is going to hit up a colleague luthier out of state for a 2nd photo opinion & possibly pop by a close local luthier to get 2nd opinion. There is one other competent tech here in the chicago area that can handle the task and is closer to his house that Ireferred him to so we'll see. It's possible once in 3d it might not need EVERYTHING done, as the quote is a worst case scenario/all inclusive bundle.

As purdy as a guitar she is, even if I could get him down to something in the 500/600 range( which would be ideal or fair? Thoughts?) dropping another 1000 into the guitar just isnt in my cards. Not all at once at least, but we'll see perhaps it's meant to be and something can work...otherwise I'll probably go with the new mahagony m20 or d25.Stay tuned....

Yes, the factory frets are pretty small. Fortunately mine are great shape. With a refret and neck reset anticipated, I certainly wouldn't pay over $500 for it. Well actually I wouldn't buy it at all needing all that. What's your location? There's a pristine M-20 on CL LA asking $900
I looked up the F20 I bought and it was $690 not $600. Here's a pic:

swiveltung · Dec 28, 2017

Recent Ebay sales of F20's, all with case:
1975: $593
1977: $775
1961: $766
19??: $699
1973: $999

Kitarkus · Dec 28, 2017

swiveltung said:
Recent Ebay sales of F20's, all with case:
1975: $593
1977: $775
1961: $766
19??: $699
1973: $999

I am still sore about missing that one at $593. I would have been willing to gamble on that one.

Certainly there are good guitars on Ebay. I watch the sales/listings and have particular interest in the vintage F20/M20. Some of those 5 sales that you listed may very well have been fine guitars that required minimal repairs/service for full functionality and health....but maybe not. These listings often provide inadequate information to make an informed guitar buying decision imo. You could get lucky...you might not be so lucky....the nature of an Ebay guitar....there is risk. I hold the opinion that a well detailed listing for a healthy vintage F-20 which needs no significant or costly repairs and where a buyer has recourse via a return policy hold a market value well above the sold price among all of those listings. This is solely my opinion. The published vintage guitar guides share my opinion to a degree.

I guess my point is that those most recent sold prices on Ebay are valid, however, I am uncertain as to whether those 5 guitars were satisfactory players without the time and $100's to make them satisfactory players. I know that if I were presented with a 1975 or older F-20 in good or better condition that played beautifully in need of no repairs for $1000 or less....I'd have my wallet out of my pocket lickety split. Anybody listening?....wanna sell me your pristine F-20 for $1000? How about your Hoboken F-20 for $1000?

swiveltung · Dec 28, 2017

Yes, no doubt it's a turkey shoot on Ebay now more than ever. I'm amazed at the crap I get that is not as represented. Finding a seller with many sales and 100% feedback helps. Also, the manner in which they answer questions gives you a clue. For a buyer, the nice thing these days is you can return most anything if it's not right. Even when the seller says "no returns". Paypal makes them take it back when you claim "not as described". As a seller, you get a lot of yayhoo's that use that to their advantage though!
I didn't look too closely at the details on those guitars but a couple at least looked very good. Guitars are worth what they actually sell for not what some think they are worth IMHO.
I was considering selling the F20 when I got a bargain Gibson LG2 locally at a bargain. But Nah, the F20 is staying! It's my favorite "pick up and play" guitar. That M20 in LA is a bargain it looks like, they are usually worth more than the F20's right?

Kitarkus · Dec 28, 2017

swiveltung said:
Yes, no doubt it's a turkey shoot on Ebay now more than ever. I'm amazed at the crap I get that is not as represented. Finding a seller with many sales and 100% feedback helps. For a buyer, the nice thing these days is you can return most anything if it's not right. Even when the seller says "no returns". Paypal makes them take it back when you claim "not as described". As a seller, you get a lot of yayhoo's that use that to their advantage though!

You are correct. The older I get, however, the less patience I have for Ebay Sellers and the inevitability of a poorly represented guitar. If I really want a particular guitar model I would rather pay a bit more and get some assurances. My time and patience have diminished and I don't want to argue, file Paypal disputes, return ship guitars etc. Time is valuable. No doubt Ebay is a guitar buyer's fantasy land....all too often more fantasy than reality....thus I take some of those sold prices with a grain of salt. I still should have bought that $593 F-20....did anyone here end up with that guitar?

adorshki · Dec 28, 2017

Nuuska said:
adorshki said:

Hi Bender, welcome aboard!
Surprised nobody's bothered to point out that what really needs to be done with that guitar is to make sure the truss is adjusted for straightness and then do a neck alignment check:

Hello

Post # 8

Click to expand...

Nuuska you addressed straightness but not the alignment check I linked to, which is the real test of need for reset.
Neck needs to be straight to do the check.

Nuuska · Dec 28, 2017

adorshki said:
Nuuska said:

Nuuska you addressed straightness but not the alignment check I linked to, which is the real test of need for reset.
Neck needs to be straight to do the check.

Click to expand...

Hi

I blame it to my poor english - but what I meant was that first the neck has to be straight before judging the action.
The original information was not complete - to say the least.

And you are correct with your link.

Cheers

F30 · Dec 28, 2017

I hope it works out for you.
I really does deserve to be played and not in storage withering away.

adorshki · Dec 28, 2017

Nuuska said:
Hi

I blame it to my poor english - but what I meant was that first the neck has to be straight before judging the action.
The original information was not complete - to say the least.

And you are correct with your link.

Cheers

Y'know, there aren't enough true gentlemen in the world but at least you're helping tip the balance in their favor.
I forget to say everything I started out thinking of myself, sometimes.
And your English is good enough so far!
:friendly_wink:

Quantum Strummer · Dec 29, 2017

I've wondered if my F-20 has had a neck reset along the way: the bridge base & possibly the saddle aren't original and the neck/body angle is excellent. OTOH I can't see any evidence of the neck being removed. (Had a couple pics of it here for awhile, though now they're in Photobucket purgatory.)

-Dave-

Bender · Dec 30, 2017

Well I'm supposed to meet with him tomorrow morning, but someone else made an offer when we were corresponding.... who done it? LOL. Updates to follow

Kitarkus · Dec 30, 2017

Not it! I hope that you are able to make a satisfactory deal for the guitar.

Bender · Dec 30, 2017

UPDATE

Nope not happening looks like he's going to take his reverb offer unless someone else offers something higher. A 1700-2000 all in guitar aint in my budget as pretty as she is, so the dreams dead ya'll:frown:

Worst Rub:
And it turns out its CME that made the offer. GO figure, they'll flip it to a collector at a crazy price and it'll sit in a closet I'm sure.

Bender · Dec 31, 2017

Calling Mr m night shyamalan, we have a twist. We worked out a deal, I had to stretch way above my budget but he accepted my offer of a dollar more than CME. The deed is done and I'll be dropping her by the luthier next week. Immediate observations, action is indeed a little high as described and pictured, and I also notice that the bridge is starting to lift a bit at the very bottom, so tack it to the list of things that will need to be done to fix her up. In the mean time I'm going to drop the tuning a bit to release some of that bridge tension, or maybe I oughta take off the strings all together?

Here's a couple shots of said bridge :/

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xcn2rg1oo6zsrdq/image1.jpeg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gu5ettd7uxdjrz/Photo Dec 31, 11 51 33 AM.jpg?dl=0

besides this and the potential neck reset, looking and sounding pretty nice gotta say.

jedzep · Dec 31, 2017

Ha! Congratulations! CME must have a thing for F20's, which is where I got mine.

Just tune it down a step to D-D, slap a capo on wherever you like it, and just play the heck out of it 'til it goes to the hospital. You can't hurt anything. Looks like plenty of saddle. Enjoy.

If that one didn't work out the 2016 F-20 is still up there on Reverb for $899 with offers accepted. The spruce has a distinctly different tone than the M-20, the former being more 'jangly' in a good way.

Bender · Dec 31, 2017

Yes hopefully she'll work out just fine. Very little belly buldge and the neck does indeed look pretty straight; so best case scenario the luthier might just need to reglue the bridge and see if that'll do the trick. Fingers crossed as that would save me BIG TIME on more work & $$$$

mavuser · Dec 31, 2017

congrats and enjoy! based on what we know right now, my luthier would likely get that perfectly set up without a neck reset. good luck!

mavuser · Dec 31, 2017

use 11's!

Guild F20 Neck Reset

Member

Enlightened Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Reverential Member

Enlightened Member

Senior Member

Reverential Member

Senior Member

Junior Member

Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Senior Member

Junior Member

Enlightened Member

Enlightened Member