Not so fast...we have a problem with my M-20...unbelievable!

Walter Broes said:

how does the guitar play in the meantime?

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In which it is demonstrated that not all veers are distractions

fronobulax said:

In which it is demonstrated that not all veers are distractions

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Exactamundo, Fro. Do tell, Kit! (and, by the way, best wishes going forward!)

Wow, Kitarkus!

I'm just reading about all of this now. I'm sorry to hear about your situation. It just puts a damper on what should be an exciting experience. I've unfortunately had similar disappointments with luthiers, so I understand how emotionally exhausting and time consuming they can be. As gilded mentioned earlier, Guilds are known to have necks that are notoriously difficult to remove easily.

I agree with all other posters here--you have a solid case for retribution. In addition to the vintage guitar guide info, I would also suggest getting some valuations from a couple of reputable shops to help support your position. Additionally, you may as well also get reimbursement go for the undelivered service, the nut replacement.

Ultimately, I hope the M-20 ends up being a solid player that still sounds good, and that you enjoy.

jp said:

Wow, Kitarkus!

I'm just reading about all of this now. I'm sorry to hear about your situation. It just puts a damper on what should be an exciting experience. I've unfortunately had similar disappointments with luthiers, so I understand how emotionally exhausting and time consuming they can be. As gilded mentioned earlier, Guilds are known to have necks that are notoriously difficult to remove easily.

I agree with all other posters here--you have a solid case for retribution. In addition to the vintage guitar guide info, I would also suggest getting some valuations from a couple of reputable shops to help support your position. Additionally, you may as well also get reimbursement go for the undelivered service, the nut replacement.

Ultimately, I hope the M-20 ends up being a solid player that still sounds good, and that you enjoy.

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Thanks for your kind and supportive words. Bittersweet with pleasure and frustration....the guitar plays marvelously. It both plays and sounds wonderful. Had this guitar been returned to me with an intact neck....it would be among the nicest condition vintage M-20's that I'd come across on the interwebz during my very long search. With its neck break...it remains a marvelous 'player' for the time being albeit no longer a vintage collectible with commensurate value. Frustratingly,...I have no knowledge of how the luthier repaired the neck....or how many pieces have been stitched together....though I think it had been broken into 4 pieces. I also do not know how long or whether his neck break and ensuing repair will remain stable. Since he has not returned my call or email...I have no answers to those questions. In the meantime I am trying to focus on the sweet rather than the bitter.

PittPastor said:

I am not an attorney. My guess is that you will not be able to recoup the full amount of the guitar. But, if you can get it appraised and show a value drop, he would probably be liable for the difference. Again, I am not an attorney. But I have seen things like this up close (and way too) personal. Usually a court will try for "fair" which means they hardly ever give you everything you are asking for.

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I'm not an attorney either but I agree with the principle which is basically: "You can't sue for damages that haven't occurred".
In this case you have possession of the guitar so you do still possess whatever the "current market value" of it is.
I think you can only be awarded the repair costs and any loss in value from your purchase price of the instrument itself.
I wouldn't go overboard with that demand for full cost of the guitar, because it may tend to reduce your overall credibility, that is, his belief in your willingness to proceed.

Kitarkus said:

Unless he hasn't checked his messages or emails since last Friday...he is ignoring me. I am a small business owner....and I cannot remember going more than a full day without checking my business. It may seem that I am jumping the gun...I'm not...I'm just placing my ducks in a row and straightening them up.

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Just to help you stay patient, I could see him being closed for the entire week between Christmas and New Year's, and depending on his level of involvement, he may very well not be checking on his business correspondence.
Do you have reason to believe he's actually at his shop?
(no answer necessary, just raising the point in case it actually was overlooked)

A few points from an old geezer who has been on earth a long time.

You are in the right 100%. Luthier lost my sympathy at non disclosure. I'm concerned this is going to eat at you far beyond any partial resolution will. And it will, by the very nature of being something that can't be undone, be a partial resolution.

So you go before a judge who has no knowledge of guitars, wood or any other knowledge of how things might be broken. Could it have been dropped in the parking lot on the way home? We know that isn't likely. Wouldn't it be likely something so obvious would be noticed immediately in an area that was the subject of repair? Are you going to tell the judge about the drying properties of laquer? So a judge is going to find some middle ground and say, tell the guy to pay you $500. In my state, that is a judgement in your favor. Cash is not forked over to you. You then get to go to the sheriff with the order to be enforced. Where do you think this is going to be in their order of importance in the grand scheme of things? So you end up being, and rightly so, pissed off at the whole bunch, and out to get your due by spreading negativity hoping to get some bit of satisfaction because you are in the right. Know what? You never will.

Ask me how I know this. Like I said, I've been around the block a few times.

So what would I advise? Communicate if you can. Tell him your previous communications were harsh because you were upset, and you believe rightfully so, and you don't want to feel bad and don't think he does either, so realizing what is done can not be undone, what can he do? Maybe send the guitar to a finish expert? There are guys that can make that visually go away.

As to the whole monetary loss aspect. Whatever your circumstance, money and possessions pale in importance compared to the health of you and your loved ones, or simple peace of mind. I am not a religious man, but I do believe in the power of forgiveness.

So do what you want, for I probably would have too. I believe in the school of hard knocks too.

My repair luthier finally called me back on Wednesday. We had a nearly 20 minute phone conversation in which he admitted to having broken the neck heel during the reset. He was very 'matter of fact' about it and informed me that neck breaks during a reset are 'common'. He told me 'when these types of things come up during a repair...you just fix them...it is part of the deal'. I asked him if he also thought it appropriate to not inform the guitar's owner that he had broken a neck...but rather disguise it extensively and simply return it to the customer silently. He said "now that's on me...i should have told you...I guess that I forgot...I guess I was just in the moment". I informed him that this type of neck break on this type of guitar has a significant and adverse impact on marketability and value. He said "I don't agree...it is fixed and that neck isn't going anywhere...its good...I just don't look at it that way...either that guitar works and works well or it doesn't...and that guitar works well. That neck is fixed, set, and isn't moving". Long story short I told him that I strongly disagreed with his views on the neck break/market value/marketability, that I was glad that he had called me because I was in the process of filling out the paperwork for a small claims case, and that his lack of disclosure of the break to me was wholly unacceptable. I suggested that he purchase the guitar from me for my total costs so that he may find whether this neck break would impact the guitar's marketability and/or market value for himself. After some discussion and back/forth I agreed to accept a full refund for all the repairs and call a truce. He argued that he shouldn't have to refund the cost for other repairs aside from the neck reset. I told him that I estimated that the market value of the guitar had been diminished by a factor beyond the total cost of the repairs and that it was a concession that I was willing to make to quickly remedy this problem between us. He agreed to do this and was supposed to meet me Friday to return my money. He called me at 9:45 Friday morning and said "so long as we are being honest with one another....I just don't have the money....Christmas, holidays, grand kids etc....I just don't have it....I hope that you can find it in your heart to give me until next Friday". I said "Okay".

I have to remind myself that I am not wrong about this and that I have every reason to be furious. I wish that he had handled this debacle differently so that neither of us were in our respective current positions. Accepting a refund for the repairs as remedy for this wrong is imo painful for both parties and I estimate is a concession to each by the other -- It saves me time and the expense, trouble, and uncertainty of small claims court. I was/am willing to accept the repair cost refund to move on. I am giving him another week to work this out before changing direction and proceeding. I am choosing to believe that he spent all of his money on Christmas gifts for his grandchildren. I am choosing to believe that he will refund the money one week later than we had agreed. I am still feeling like I am being duped by this guy. We shall see.

Kitarkus:
Good for you and it turns out -_ all positive on Friday.

It's tiring just to follow the story, so I'm sure we all share your angst. You are following a strong common sense path to resolution, but without ending up with the guitar you thought you bought. I appreciate your fortitude.

See, if down the road, you can find a cosmetic pro to take the next step. After you get your $, of course.

It ain't over 'til it's over.

Sounds like, though not exactly resolution you were looking for, you found one just the same. Here is to hoping you get some level of closure on this next Friday Kit. This would be maddening indeed.

Kit, I have my fingers crossed for you, but I want you to know that this guy's full of you-know-what about breaking the neck heel as a common occurrence. There's just too much deceit going on here to believe any of the rest of what he said. Well, at least he spoke with you, indicating, perhaps, the vestiges of a conscience. My guess, and I hope I'm wrong, is that you will not be able to reach this guy in a week.

Anyway, good luck, and sorry for your troubles.

Kitarkus said:

The guitar is an absolute joy to play and sounds great. What would you do?

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I absolutely understand your anger at this situation.

However . . . given that you said in your first post that the guitar plays & sounds beautifully, it seems to me that if he refunded the cost of the neck reset, you would be adequately compensated.

And if that is a smaller number than what he is currently struggling to repay you, then you're more likely to actually get it back.

Good luck on Friday, Kit! It would be nice to put this behind you!

geoguy, I disagree, I think Kitarkus is giving him a break asking for (and expecting) a full refund of all the work this guy did, and therefore not taking him to court...

walrus

Kitarkus, nice work and good luck wrapping this up fast. You have succeeded in getting him to confess he broke the guitar and should have told you about it, as we discussed. the rest should fall right into place for you. the restoration refund, and you keep the M-20, seems like a fair enough deal for both sides, with as u mentioned, a little pain on both sides as well. Given the M-20s popularity and what is still an overall excellent example and well set up guitar, you are definitely coming out on top. I am cool with the result (once u have the cash in your hands), and was only trying to help you get that result by telling you to ask for as much as one could reasonably demanded, in the first place. hang in there and let us know when its over!

Even with the repair, what do you think is the likelihood that you'll find another example of this instrument in equal or better overall condition again? Would you consider the guitar a for sure keeper without the heel issue?

Let's assume the heel is now structurally sound. It might be best to spend the refunded repair money on pursuing a cosmetic fix so that you don't ever have to look at the guitar and see the visual remnants of this fellow's work.

Whether a finish blend or slightly darkened area at the heel, a cleanly finished fix might make for a rather agreeable overall solution.

Seems like you're on the right path - good luck on a satisfactory outcome.

Here's a veer. I mean a wide one.

Hey bobouz, ever think of selling your ES-125?

Kit',

It sounds like you are doing a good job, sir.

I think you are in a good place if you get your money back. If he doesn't pay on the agreed date, or partially pays, get a signed piece of paper from him admitting the he broke the heel and that he has agreed to refund the monies. If he does not pay fully, do not accept a check that says something like, 'full and final payment' in the memo section, when the payment is only partial.

Good luck, Harry/gilded

...and he probably has something (customers) to lose should he pish you off enough to start sharing the story in his business milieu, which you could do with little effort. He owes you full refund AND humble apology.

I would figure anyone doing this type of work would be bonded somehow , I’d be danged if I would work on instruments with out some kind of financial protection in case something went south. My business won’t go far if can’t maintain expenditures.

I mentioned in a past post that I agree things can break but that possibility is not a given ! Unless there was a disclaimer provided and signed .

I myself fight having patience but if working on something costly I find it or walk away .

To me that’s odd break and find myself trying to think of the point of pressure to have that happen . Maybe it was underlying , a unseen natural failure do to age .

Anyway all water over the dam , maybe find an expert appraisal then settle the difference between the cost and current value if the current agreement fails .

I thought about that too, Ray. Was he tapping with a mallet or hammer to get a stubborn joint to separate? Pulling a little too hard or just banged/dropped the neck?

When all is said and done, Kit should have his repair money back and own a great player. He'll have to figure out whether it's wise to continue to restore. As I said, I've seen some bad breaks fixed to nearly undetectable quality.