ezstrummer
Member
That is one awesome guitar! Love the yellowed binding..
1973 Guild D55 Questions and Mysteries!
- Thread starter Rooftop
- Start date
adorshki
Reverential Member
's ok.
We're just a little more obsessive than the typical guitar forum around here.
I try to compensate for it with excessive detail.
:biggrin-new:
Butch
Junior Member
I think that they moved away from using a lacquer finish at about the same time?
adorshki
Reverential Member
Who you been talkin' too, boy? :friendly_wink:
They NEVER moved away from an NCL finish on D55's.
Only, if a recent report is accurate, on the Hand-Rubbed D4's and DV52's and DV-6's, which I thought were a hand-applied NCL gel but have since seen ID'd as an actual poly gel, by a source here I trust.
Up until opening of Oxnard it was almost 100% accurate to say Guild was "all NCL all the time", but they did do a little bit of experimentation in Westerly with poly finishes, and a couple of those weren't actual flat-tops, they were solid-bodied "faux" flattops.
Even Westerly Satin finish was ID'd as NCL by that same source.
Only started using varnish recently, in Oxnard, on the satin finish models.
They still offer NCL gloss on the D55 and a couple other high-ends, it's just very expensive from a labor standpoint these days.
Guild's first large scale use of poly was on the MIC GAD models beginning in late '03-early '04, maybe that's what you were thinking of?
Butch
Junior Member
I had heard from my luthier that when George Gruhn and his group purchased Guild the stopped using NCL because it was cheaper and there were environmental issues with using NCL.
Rich Cohen
Senior Member
George Gruhn "purchased Guild," I never heard that.
Butch
Junior Member
George Gruhn and a group of investors either purchased or at least purchased a portion of Guild. This was prior to Fender acquiring Guild. I don’t remember all of the specifics of the arrangement, but I’m sure he had an ownership interest in Guild.
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adorshki
Reverential Member
THAT part's true, as detailed in this article (and I had to go back and find it to renew my own recollection, because I didn't recall him actually having an ownership stake myself):
http://www.vintageguitar.com/3275/1985-guild-nightbird-prototype/
"In August of 1986, I was part of a group that bought the Guild company. I became the Executive V.P. of Research and Development and Artist Relations, and was on the board of directors. I served in that capacity through 1988, during which time I designed numerous new models and helped modify existing models. Unfortunately, I soon found that being a minority shareholder had its drawbacks. Guild did not prosper under this management team and was sold to an investor who, after running the company for several years on his own, sold it to Fender, which owns the brand today."
This part is absolutely incorrect:
While it's true that NCL in general started being more and more restricted, it was the California Air Resources Board (CARB) that really started the ball rolling and the rest of the country gradually climbed on board.
It was probably the auto industry that was the biggest user, but in any case, usage is so highly regulated now that there's literally a shortage of skilled sprayers, and that's one of the reasons Oxnard's use is so limited.
But contrary to myth it's still legal and still being used.
Trust me when I say I've done some serious looking into the subject, and it's come up many times before.
Try this thread:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?188931-Finishes&highlight=finishes
OK you've been a member for a couple of years but I'm going to assume you don't drop in much, going by your post count.
NO snark intended there and I sense you're wanting to participate more and that's great. I think you're sincere in wanting to know more or share what you know abut Guild and you came to the right place.
Sounds like you've just been exposed to some of the myths about Guild that are all-too-often based on particles of truth covered with layers of incorrect history and memories.
Myth-busting's one of my favorite pastimes.
Basically even Hans Moust will confirm my statement that with very few exceptions, Westerly Guilds were "all NCL, all the time".
And all following US-builts were too, until the start of production in Oxnard CA about 15 months or so ago.
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Butch
Junior Member
Wow!!!! Seems like we are a little touchy here. I certainly didn’t want to offend anyone. I was just sharing what my luthier told me. So scanning through the thread that you posted it sounds like they did go to a polyurethane finish at some point on some models, so , through your own admission, my statement was not without merit. I guess if I am interpreting your post correctly, as of approximately 15 months ago, they no longer use NCL? While I post very little, I am not a “newbie” when it comes to Guild guitars. I have played nothing but Guild guitars, for the most part, since 1976. I bought my first new Guild, an F50R, in 1979. That guitar has always had an exceptional sound. With the exception of 2GAD Guilds, all of my Guilds were manufactured prior to 1980. At one point in time I owned a 1938 Martin D28 Herringbone, which is considered by most to be the Holy Grail of steel string guitars. I sold that guitar because I thought that the sound of my F50R was far superior. Unfortunately, and I know that you are not going to like this statement at all, I did see a shift in quality, following George Gruhn’s involvement with Guild.
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adorshki
Reverential Member
Possibly. Actually was trying not to make assumptions about your knowledge of Guild.
Especially when I realized you were right abut Gruhn just not about the move away from NCL.
Then I decided to corroborate your Gruhn statement as a gesture of support rather than "refute" Rich.
But had to be balanced with the NCL thing.
:friendly_wink:
NO offense taken and I realized you were just citing your source. I can get a little intense sometimes and if I sounded "irritated" to you I apologize.
One of the pitfalls of written communication, no vocal inflections to color the words the way I intend.
Technically yes, it has some merit but the change happened after Gruhn left and I've never seen anything that implied they used the poly due to environmental concerns.
And the phrase "Stopped using" is pretty absolute and simply not true. That's what I as focusing on.
It's definitely more accurate to say they "Experimented with Poly on some models" for a while (in fact I think that's even the term Hans used when he first confirmed it was used on the solid-bodied "acoustic"-electrics where top vibration was irrelevant) and it was at the end of Gruhn's tenure or even after he left.
And I'm still not positive the gel used for the Hand Rubbed finish WAS actually poly.
While I trust SFIV1967 (the source I mentioned earlier) to a huge degree, even he does occasionally make a mistake.
And his source was one of the Westerly employees and HE might have been mistaken.
I'd like to see a confirmation from somebody like Hans that the "HR" finish which is the only one so far ID'd as poly in Westerly, on flattops , actually was poly.
Here's one of the first posts I ever saw about it, from somebody who has one of each:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...nd-rubbed-satin-finishes/page2&highlight=poly.
"Satin" has since been confirmed to be sprayed NCL with a flattening agent.
HR is the only candidate still left which I'm not 100% certain about.
Note Hideglue's description of it as a "Waxy paste" in post #11 of that thread.
Hideglue worked in Westerly.
I'm almost positive he confirmed it as an NC-based gel elsewhere but I could be mistaken myself.
That might have been the post I remembered for all these years and I just assumed it had to be NC at the time since I'd never heard of 'em using anything else.
You can also tell nobody else in that thread had at the time, either.
A far as I can tell the DV52 was the first model to use the HR finish, and that's certainly not an entry-level piece which also tends to goa against it's being poly.
Another thread about DV52's which went into the topic:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?175487-A-simple-DV52-question/page2
"Up until about 15 months ago in Oxnard" was meant to qualify the "All NCL all the time" statement because Oxnard introduced "catalyzed varnish" as the "standard" finish.
(We still don't know what that's made of.)
I thought I'd made clear in the "finishes" thread that Oxnard was certified and intended to produce NCL gloss finished guitars and they in fact have now done so on D40's (the first model), D55's, and F55's.
But it's reserved for the high-enders now.
Thought I'd already mentioned it in this thread, oh, it's in post #48 "...and that's one of the reasons Oxnard's use is so limited.
But contrary to myth it's still legal and still being used.", but yeah I guess it coulda been a little clearer, as in "still being used in Oxnard"
You were a real gentleman in voicing your questions and I respect it very much.
I admit I didn't look at all your previous posts to see if you'd mentioned your history before but it helps. It's just nice to know where a guy's coming from.
No I got no problem with that. Different periods all have their loyal fans here, but I gotta ask, have you ever tried a late Westerly?
And I gotta admit I've only ever owned the 3 in my sig, my experience IS very limited although I've got a buddy with an '87 JF30-12 (got bridge lift 2 years in, wasn't over-stressed, it was his baby) and another with a '74 G-37 (single best sounding acoustic I ever heard in my life)
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Butch
Junior Member
I probably haven’t mentioned much about my history on here, but I do know a lot about acoustic guitars especially Guilds and pre war Martin’s. I’ve never been a big Martin fan. I have had a number of them over the years and I am intrigued by their historical significance. Augustine Loprinzi is a very old friend of mine and I learned a lot about acoustic guitars and their construction from him. Back when he was still building, I would always bring my guitars up to him to have them buffed to the point where he would almost burn through the finish. I only want just enough finish on the guitar to protect the wood. By doing that it allows the top and back to vibrate more. Another thing that learned from him was that you want the back to vibrate as much as possible, just like the top. I could go on and on. I have played late Westerly Guilds. The challenge with any guitar is that one out of ten will sound really good but one in twenty will sound exceptional. It’s finding that exceptional one that keeps me always searching for guitars.
Butch
Junior Member
One thing I forgot to mention was that I am having a jumbo guitar built as we speak. The bracing pattern and every thing else is being copied from my original F50R with the exception that I’m using cocobolo rosewood for the back and sides and Engleman(?) spruce for the top. I will post some pictures of it shortly.
adorshki
Reverential Member
Interesting.
When I got my first steel-strung I kind of intuitively sensed that the back should be left undamped for best sound and it was another reason I always used the classical position whenever possible.
Still do to this day, primarily for ergonomics, in fact now I'm at the point that I won't play unless I have a good seating position.
And that part about the last finish possible to allow the top to vibrate more freely is a major reason a lot of us think NCL's the best finish, precisely because it does continuously lose mass as it outgasses while it ages, allowing more and more top motion over time.
Wild about knowing Augie Loprinzi personally, I bet a few folks here would envy that.
Thanks for finally sharing some of that stuff, please keep it coming whenever you like!
And yes do show us pics of that custom build!
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txbumper57
Enlightened Member
My GSR Guild D50 is Englemann Spruce topped with Cocobolo back and sides. That is one of my Favorite all time tone wood combos. Ever since I got the GSR D50 I have dreamed of having an F50R with the same tonewoods. I'll bet that is going to be one Beautiful looking and sounding Jumbo Butch!
TX
adorshki
Reverential Member
"Butch", disclosed in a veer about finishes, see post #52 in this thread.
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Rayk
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Butch
Junior Member
I’ve known Augie for many years, he is really a great guy. I have a dreadnaught that he built for me out of cocobolo and Engleman spruce with abalone around the top and down the back that absolutely cranks. Cocobolo is supposed to be very close to Brazilian in terms of density. In fact I believe it may be slightly more dense. I can try to post some pictures if any one is interested. The jumbo that I’m having built is being built by a friend of mine. His primary job is a letter carrier for the USPS, but he builds some phenomenal guitars. That guitar also has abalone around the top and down the back.The finger board has a tree of life in it that continues up to the veneer for the head stock. The finger board and headstock inlays were done by Dave Nichols. Dave is the same guy that does all of the custom inlay work for Martin. When that guitar is done I have been talking to him about doing a 12 string using my F612 as a pattern.
txbumper57
Enlightened Member
I would love to see some photos, I had a few things custom inlaid by Dave Nichols over the years and he does some Amazing work. That Jumbo sounds like something I would be seriously interested in seeing photos of and hearing when it is finished. There was a thread somewhere here on the forum about a guy who had a Cocoblolo 12 string built based on the F612 body without the bling but he left the scale length at 25.5". I think there were some sound clips of it here or on AGF and that thing sounded really good. I own a few Brazilian RW Guilds and My Cocobolo model is right there with them in almost every aspect of tone. If I had to choose I think I might even lean towards the Cocobolo over the Brazilian RW as it has such a Haunting tone to it that I just melt every time I play it. Not only is the Cocobolo super dense but it is much harder to work with than other rosewoods due to the oil it produces and it's uncanning ability to clog up machines and wear out tools, LOL. Still to me it is one of the finest tonewoods ever used. Congrats on getting that jumbo built and look forward to hearing more about it in the future Butch.
TX
Butch
Junior Member
Dave is a real interesting guy to deal with. He is hilarious. I really enjoyed working with him and his inlay work is incredible. It took a while to get everything back from him but it was definitely worth the wait. I have heard that cocobolo is difficult to work with but it seems like it really projects. One of my F 512's has has Brazilian sides but I don't have any Guilds that are all Brazilian. There is a Brazilian F50r on eBay right now but I have no idea what it's worth. I've been thinking about it which is always dangerous.