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Thread: Nitrocellulose Lacquer

  1. #21
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guild-1979-d40 View Post
    Exactly. I'm still waiting for somebody to explain what it is and if Oxnard has the capabilities.
    Yer havin' us on, aren'tcha?
    But just in case, see post #10 and be aware that Oxnard has already produced guitars with a high gloss NCL finish, just like you got on your '79 D40.
    Or maybe a little better due to improvements in the stuff over the years..
    I guess it's about time to veer into the old "nitro vs poly" debate.
    Nitro's better. Period.
    Last edited by adorshki; 11-30-2017 at 10:25 PM.
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

  2. #22
    Al, if it's a veer you're wanting, your last post caused me to become keenly aware of my vast ignorance. You mentioned "varnish". These past couple of years I've become pretty infatuated with Collings guitars and recently bought one (mine has a nitro finish). Varnish is one of the finishes they offer at Collings, but my gosh at the price tag. Collings is also pretty clear about the pros and cons of varnish in regards to acoustics. According to Collings (and I believe them), varnish is a much softer finish than nitro and is subject to nicks, dings, etc. Acoustically they say it's about as close to bare wood as you can get in a finish. They also say it changes color over time. But WHY is it so expensive? Anyone know?

    West
    http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... nt=widgets

    '79 D25
    '89 JF30 12
    '94 DV72
    '95 DV73
    '98 DV52
    '00 D30
    '01 D55
    '13 Collings CJ

  3. #23
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by West R Lee View Post
    According to Collings (and I believe them), varnish is a much softer finish than nitro and is subject to nicks, dings, etc. Acoustically they say it's about as close to bare wood as you can get in a finish. But WHY is it so expensive? Anyone know?

    West
    I'm gonna hazard a wild guess that it's because it's so time-consuming to finish an instrument that way, it's very slow drying, for starters.
    I started a thread on finishes a while back:
    http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sho...ight=catalyzed
    Which contained this link:
    http://www.aitchisoncellos.com/publi...cello-varnish/
    Which contains this excerpt:
    "However, classical makers resisted innovation in one crucial area: the use of pine resin in varnish. Traditionally, cooked pine resin was melted into a drying oil such as walnut or linseed oil, which formed the basis of most varnishes across Europe during the 16th century. If cooked slowly, the resulting varnish always remains soft and flexible: a beneficial quality for stringed instruments. By the time of Stradivarius, most other woodworkers and makers of other musical instrument families (e.g. keyboard and plucked strings) had adopted more durable finishes made from the tougher resins available at that time such as copal from the Far East, but the great classical makers continued to use their out-dated wood finishing methods and materials with the result that their varnishes have remained delicate and flexible in a way that has enhanced the sound and beauty of these instruments.

    If a traditional linseed or walnut oil and pine resin varnish is cooked sufficiently slowly, it will never completely harden, but if you cook oil varnish over too high a temperature, it will harden very rapidly and will then change very little with the passage of time. A varnish which stays hard and glossy for over 100 years is far too hard, and is the antithesis of the best varnishes to have been produced. Varnish which remains soft is in a permanent state of chemical evolution as it reacts with the oxygen in the air and also with other elements which come into contact with it, such as moisture, sweat and skin, as well as changes in temperature. This process never ceases, causing significant changes to the structure of varnish over time, including the extraordinary fact that linseed oil varnish becomes alcohol soluble after about 200 years."


    The takeaway from this is that after 200 years you should be careful when sipping single malt around your Collings.
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by adorshki View Post
    I'm gonna hazard a wild guess that it's because it's so time-consuming to finish an instrument that way, it's very slow drying, for starters.
    I started a thread on finishes a while back:
    http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sho...ight=catalyzed
    Which contained this link:
    http://www.aitchisoncellos.com/publi...cello-varnish/
    Which contains this excerpt:
    "However, classical makers resisted innovation in one crucial area: the use of pine resin in varnish. Traditionally, cooked pine resin was melted into a drying oil such as walnut or linseed oil, which formed the basis of most varnishes across Europe during the 16th century. If cooked slowly, the resulting varnish always remains soft and flexible: a beneficial quality for stringed instruments. By the time of Stradivarius, most other woodworkers and makers of other musical instrument families (e.g. keyboard and plucked strings) had adopted more durable finishes made from the tougher resins available at that time such as copal from the Far East, but the great classical makers continued to use their out-dated wood finishing methods and materials with the result that their varnishes have remained delicate and flexible in a way that has enhanced the sound and beauty of these instruments.

    If a traditional linseed or walnut oil and pine resin varnish is cooked sufficiently slowly, it will never completely harden, but if you cook oil varnish over too high a temperature, it will harden very rapidly and will then change very little with the passage of time. A varnish which stays hard and glossy for over 100 years is far too hard, and is the antithesis of the best varnishes to have been produced. Varnish which remains soft is in a permanent state of chemical evolution as it reacts with the oxygen in the air and also with other elements which come into contact with it, such as moisture, sweat and skin, as well as changes in temperature. This process never ceases, causing significant changes to the structure of varnish over time, including the extraordinary fact that linseed oil varnish becomes alcohol soluble after about 200 years."


    The takeaway from this is that after 200 years you should be careful when sipping single malt around your Collings.
    Nah, my Collings has a nitro finish......just like my Guilds. But if it did, I'd make sure my great, great grandchildren were well aware.

    West
    http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... nt=widgets

    '79 D25
    '89 JF30 12
    '94 DV72
    '95 DV73
    '98 DV52
    '00 D30
    '01 D55
    '13 Collings CJ

  5. #25
    Super Moderator chazmo's Avatar
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    Get on that, West! :) :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Neal
    I am going to hang onto this little F-20 and play it as a reminder that life is sometimes rough, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the damage you accrue along the way defines who you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by marcellis
    Growing old is a bitch.
    Guild 12-strings:
    1978 G-312NT (Westerly) - "Franzz",
    1994 JF-30-12Bld (Westerly),
    2006 F-512 (Tacoma),
    2010 F-212XL STD (New Hartford) - "Connie"
    2014 Orpheum 12 OOO SHRW (New Hartford)

    Non-Guild 12s:
    1970 Martin D-12-20
    1980 Ibanez AW-75 (Series I)
    1984 Taylor 655

  6. #26
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by West R Lee View Post
    Nah, my Collings has a nitro finish......just like my Guilds. But if it did, I'd make sure my great, great grandchildren were well aware.

    West
    Right, shoulda said "around a varnish-finished Collings".
    Was pretty sure the single malt clause was valid.
    Even if I do have a preference for McCormick's Platte Valley myself.


    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

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