Looking to be educated on Archtops

sailingshoes72

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While we're talking 'bout the history of archtop guitars... check out this one:

https://cartervintage.com/collectio...bson-orville-guitar-c1899?variant=44502178755

Orville H. Gibson (1856-1918) is known as "The Father of the Archtop Guitar". His method of construction borrowed elements from the violin family. The top is carved from a solid piece of spruce and the back is carved from a solid piece of walnut. The sides (or rim) is a single slab of walnut carved into a hoop. There is no seam at the bottom (tailblock) or at the neck joint. There are no internal braces, blocks or sound posts. This design was revolutionary in guitar construction, but very time consuming to execute. Orville Gibson made only about 6 or 7 instruments a year during his twelve years of active building.

The handwritten label appears to read:

The Gibson
Mandolins & Guitars
Made by
O.H. Gibson... (illegible)
Patented Feb. 1st 1898

As kakerlak pointed out above, Lloyd Loar, working as an "acoustic engineer" at the "Gibson Mandolin-Guitar Co.", refined these ideas during the 1920s into the instrument we know today. "The Gibson" guitar pictured above might be a nice "starter" instrument for someone interested in archtop guitars. To be honest, though, it looks like it might sound a little "thuddy".

sailin'shoes
 
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PittPastor

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Really interesting stuff there, sainingshoes. Thanks!

As kakerlak pointed out above, Lloyd Loar, working as an "acoustic engineer" at the "Gibson Mandolin-Guitar Co.", refined these ideas during the 1920s into the instrument we know today.

And now (I am assuming) Loar's contribution is honored by a Chinese company naming their archtops after him?
 

adorshki

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Still interested on how folks think the action is: Does it compare more to an Electric's or more like a flattop?

That's going to be a variable based on factors of which build type is only one, and probably not even the most important, element.
Fretboard radius, neck profile, scale length and string gauge all play a role, before we get into setup for which the same standards as a flat-top would apply.
String gauge and scale length are probably the biggest factors since most electrics are set up with much lighter strings than flattops, which need the extra mass to produce acceptable volume and the same principle would apply to true acoustic archtops while electric archtops can get away with the lighter gauges again.
Another "read between the lines" detail: the true acoustic archtop Artist Award used a 25-5/8 scale like the flattop jumbos and dreadnoughts, but the electric hollows more commonly used the 24-3/4" scale.
Also the difference in "feel" of the traditional fixed bridge on a flattop vs the floating bridge on archtops will affect "feel".
I'll cite Guild's Fxxce types again as an attempt to give a flattop the "feel" of an electric by using a narrow nut and lighter gauge strings.
Early models even had a short scale which also made for a "softer" feel like an electric.
 

PittPastor

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the true acoustic archtop Artist Award used a 25-5/8 scale like the flattop jumbos and dreadnoughts, but the electric hollows more commonly used the 24-3/4" scale.

OK, while I am professing ignorance and trying to learn, let me ask about this. Can you describe to me why this makes a difference? Why someone would maybe prefer one scale size over another?
 

adorshki

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OK, while I am professing ignorance and trying to learn, let me ask about this. Can you describe to me why this makes a difference? Why someone would maybe prefer one scale size over another?
"Long scale" guitars require higher tension to be brought to concert pitch.
The extra tension imparts a bit more energy to a top (more volume) and reduces some other undesirable effects like "warble" that are more audible with short-scales.
The short-scales, having less tension at pitch, are noticeably easier to bend with.
And some folks with smaller hands may simply appreciate the shorter distance between frets.
Moral of story: A true acoustic archtop using a long scale would go a long way towards generating a more "flat-top" like feel.
 

marcellis

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I have a couple of Guild Acoustics, but have never played a Guild Archtop. I am curious as to what draws someone to an archtop as opposed to a flat top?

Two pickups make it seem more electric than acoustic. But if that's so, why the hollowbody?

I have played an Ibanez Hollowbody 12-String and pretty much hated it. It seemed oddly balanced to me. Too big to be an electric and too heavy to be an acoustic -- sort of the worst of both worlds. The center of gravity just seemed all wrong -- although maybe I am just used to the feel of an acoustic and didn't give it its fair due. I'm guessing not all of them are like that... But what are the advantages and disadvantages of the archtop (hollow-body or full-on acoustic body).

Is the action more like an electric than an acoustic?

If this has been asked and covered before, just shoot me a link, but I didn't see one.

Thanks!

Archtops have a totally different acoustic tone than flat-tops. Much less sustain but more warmth and punch. Real archtops have a very nice, plunky sound. You can't get that tone on a flat-top.

Neck action on an arch-top is not standardized. Some play like electrics. Others play like acoustics.
 

PittPastor

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Hmmm... I wonder if I can figure out a way of talking my wife into driving 2 1/2 hours for an overnight. I can see it now...

"It will be great honey. We can get a small B&B on Lake Erie. A Nice Romantic Get-away..."

-Next Day-

"Oh, hey, look! There's a Guitar Center here. I think I'll pop in and see what they have in stock..."

-Inside-

"What? They have a Guild Artist Award Hollow Body? What an amazing coincidence... That just happens to be that guitar I've been dying to play..."


1997 Guild Artist Award

-sigh!-

Unfortunately, I married a smart woman. I'd never get past the PA border before she would snuff this out. Oh well... I sure would love to play one of those though.
 

mad dog

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All of these questions answer themselves. Starting with your seeking to understand archtops (electric, acoustic) in comparison to regular acoustic instrumentd. That is reflective of your experience, is the start of a learning curve which will eventually take you past where any comparisons are all that important.

Archtops have been a learning process for me. Along with semi hollows and even chamber solid bodies. It starts with how air can affect electric sound. Then how various construction factors of hollowbody electrics affect feel, playability and sound. I didn't get it at first. Owned a couple hollowbodies, couldn't get over the hump. It was the different sustain characteristics, the feedback. And then one day my body relaxed and began to automatically, damp, control. And I started practicing jazz, playing and owning high quality instruments. Now the comfort is their, and the new is familiar. Some of the same rules apply (in some, not all ways equally) across guitar types. The influence of scale is a big deal. You don't have to play archtops to get it. A big difference in feel, sound in any guitar type.

Some other factors - bridge design, laminated vs. solid, lightness or heaviness of build, floating vs. set p/us - are IMO with archtops well beyond what you might experience with flattops. If you're at all like I am, you'll set up reasonable expectations (as you're doing right now), then just start trying stuff. If they suit you, and the learning curve is not too steep, you'll soon be able to see in those expectations are real.
MD
 

adorshki

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Unfortunately, I married a smart woman. I'd never get past the PA border before she would snuff this out. Oh well... I sure would love to play one of those though.
Tell her the truth.
That you want to drive all the way to Mayfield just to try a guitar you have absolutely no intention of buying and you didn't think she'd be interested in such a long drive.
Then she'll probably want to go so she can shop at a new mall.
And make sure you don't buy the guitar.
:glee:
 

matsickma

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Why not buy it. Have it shipped, try it out for a day or two to satisfy your interest then return it, get reimbursed less the Shipping cost. Surely the $30 shipping will be a lot less that a trip and you will get a day or two to explore the guitar.

M
 

adorshki

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Why not buy it. Have it shipped, try it out for a day or two to satisfy your interest then return it, get reimbursed less the Shipping cost. Surely the $30 shipping will be a lot less that a trip and you will get a day or two to explore the guitar.

M

Awesome.
And the wife's right there to make sure you don't keep it. too.
:glee:
 

PittPastor

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Why not buy it. Have it shipped, try it out for a day or two to satisfy your interest then return it, get reimbursed less the Shipping cost. Surely the $30 shipping will be a lot less that a trip and you will get a day or two to explore the guitar.

I actually thought of that. I feel like I'm abusing the system though, since I know I cannot get it. Yet. And then they end up with a pretty pricey piece of rather esoteric inventory that might be hard for them to move. But I AM tempted to do that!

Tell her the truth.
That you want to drive all the way to Mayfield just to try a guitar you have absolutely no intention of buying and you didn't think she'd be interested in such a long drive.
Then she'll probably want to go so she can shop at a new mall.
And make sure you don't buy the guitar.

And I have some credibility there, since I already bought and returned a Martin at GC and a Seagull. But IDK about the 5 hours of driving for 1 hour of playing guitar ratio...

Weird thing is: I want that guitar without knowing why. And it's not just "It's expensive so it must be good" syndrome, either. I liked it when I saw it on a YouTube video -- before I knew it cost as much as a (used) car.
 

bobouz

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GC currently has two sunburst A-150 Savoys in stock, listed as being in excellent condition, for approx $700 & $750 if I remember correctly. This is the same model I currently own, except mine is the blond version.

The Savoy would go a long ways towards helping you have a frame of reference for a fully acoustic hollowbody archtop. The solid spruce top is pressed & X-braced, and the D'Armond pickup floats independent of the soundboard.

If you decide to try one, be aware that these originally come strung with electric flatwound strings for a jazz tone. To get a true feel for their acoustic capabilities, start by stringing it up with the brand of acoustic strings you most commonly use. Then you'll more accurately be able to compare the sonic differences of a flattop acoustic to an archtop acoustic.
 

adorshki

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I actually thought of that. I feel like I'm abusing the system though, since I know I cannot get it.
Joking aside I actually agree with and applaud that philosophy.. I don't even accept offers to open the "high-end" room at a local shop, when I have no intention of actually purchasing.
There's another factor though: I can't understand how people can evaluate a guitar in most shops in the first place. The acoustic environments I've encountered are rarely ideal.

And I have some credibility there, since I already bought and returned a Martin at GC and a Seagull. But IDK about the 5 hours of driving for 1 hour of playing guitar ratio...
Hey out here in Sillycon Valley I don't even want to spend 1/2 an hour on the road. Takes that long just to go 15 miles around here.

Weird thing is: I want that guitar without knowing why. And it's not just "It's expensive so it must be good" syndrome, either. I liked it when I saw it on a YouTube video -- before I knew it cost as much as a (used) car.

When I bought my F65ce I actually spent more on it than I'd ever spent on a car. At the time I was into first generation RX-7's and other special niche cars which were normally under $1200.00, and bought 'm outright..
By that analogy Bobouz' suggestion sounds excellent.
 

PittPastor

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GC currently has two sunburst A-150 Savoys in stock, listed as being in excellent condition, for approx $700 & $750 if I remember correctly. This is the same model I currently own, except mine is the blond version.
The Savoy would go a long ways towards helping you have a frame of reference for a fully acoustic hollowbody archtop. The solid spruce top is pressed & X-braced, and the D'Armond pickup floats independent of the soundboard.

How does the A-150 compare in sound (when unplugged) to something like the Eastman AR605, the Loar LH 650? I pick those because there seem to be a lot of youtube videos comparing the sounds of them. The Loar seems like (if you happen to get a good one) a real bargain. But there seem to be QC issues.

I'm looking for something that I can play plugged in or not. Much of the time I am playing in my living room, and there is no amp in sight.

BTW, what's the difference between the A-150 and A-150B? Is B just for "Blonde?"

Joking aside I actually agree with and applaud that philosophy.. I don't even accept offers to open the "high-end" room at a local shop, when I have no intention of actually purchasing.
There's another factor though: I can't understand how people can evaluate a guitar in most shops in the first place. The acoustic environments I've encountered are rarely ideal.

Oh, don't get me wrong, if my local GC had it, I would play it every time I was in there. I'd even consider buying it on my GC card and taking it home for an in-house evaluation. Because it's not impossible that I will pull the trigger on it. Just (at this time) highly unlikely. But that would only be if it were already in their inventory.
 
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bobouz

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How does the A-150 compare in sound (when unplugged) to something like the Eastman AR605, the Loar LH 650? I pick those because there seem to be a lot of youtube videos comparing the sounds of them.
I'm looking for something that I can play plugged in or not.
BTW, what's the difference between the A-150 and A-150B? Is B just for "Blonde?"

PP - The A-150b is indeed the "blonde" version, with a harp tailpiece (no Bigsby version). As for how the Savoy compares to the Eastman or Loar, I've never played those so really can't say. I compare it to the many acoustic hollowbodies I've owned, primarily in the '70s, and with that range of instruments in mind, this one runs right with the best of them in delivering a solidly crisp & punchy tone. I also very much enjoy the plugged in sound, given that I was already partial to the clean & touch-sensitive tone delivered by single-coil pickups such as Gibson's P-90.

I will reiterate that you really need to experience the tone of a good hollowbody in order to first find out if it suits your playing style at all. They are very different animals. If you are primarily a strummer, you might find the sound to be too narrow & limiting overall. I almost exclusively fingerpick with flesh+nails, and with my particular style, I find that the variations in tone (compared to a flattop) can be musically stimulating.

Edit: One thing I forgot to mention: Fender introduced this model as part of the original Newark St. series in 2013. Fender included the serial number on the back of the headstock, while Cordoba does not. Mine is from the Fender era, and I don't know if anything related to build quality has changed along with the change in ownership.
 
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PittPastor

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I will reiterate that you really need to experience the tone of a good hollowbody in order to first find out if it suits your playing style at all. They are very different animals. If you are primarily a strummer, you might find the sound to be too narrow & limiting overall. I almost exclusively fingerpick with flesh+nails, and with my particular style, I find that the variations in tone (compared to a flattop) can be musically stimulating.

That's what I play, as well. I think I may do this. You saw all of the ones on GC. Which do you prefer -- if it were you checking them out?

Also, I saw this one on Reverb... that can't be true, can it? There are no 2017 Savoys are there?

guild-savoy-a-150-2017-antique-sunburst
 

matsickma

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Yes their are!
These are the NS MiK reissues. I have a Blond one and like it quite a bit. Comes with flat wound strings. I actually have it setup with drop D tuning. I primary play it acoustically. Have been looking to add an acoustic Fishman type pickup to it.

You can get them used and mint for very reasonable prices. Check eBay.
M
 
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