Looking to be educated on Archtops

bobouz

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I emailed them but haven't heard back yet.
I thought this pic was trying to show the damage...? Looks like a scratch. Could be crack. IDK. Be nice if they got back to me!
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Strange - When I pull up the listing on my computer, I'm not getting this image. Regardless, my money would be on this being a crack, like most of them are. The problem is, the volume knob rests directly against the top of the case, and there is virtually no padding at the point of contact with the case top. Any type of downward pressure on the top of the case causes the metal volume pot below the pickguard to plunge directly into the top. There is no padding between the metal pot and the top, and because this instrument is X-braced, there's no vertical brace running underneath this area, as you would have on a typical acoustic archtop with parallel bracing.

When I received my A-150b, I immediately noticed this issue & placed a small felt pad underneath the volume pot.
 

PittPastor

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Strange - When I pull up the listing on my computer, I'm not getting this image.

What are you viewing the website on? A tablet or a laptop? I noticed that sometimes the mobile versions of some sights don't give all of the features of the classic view.


Regardless, my money would be on this being a crack, like most of them are... There is no padding between the metal pot and the top, and because this instrument is X-braced, there's no vertical brace running underneath this area, as you would have on a typical acoustic archtop with parallel bracing.


Still haven't heard from MF. I got an email from them wanting me to subscribe to their promotional emails. I got an email reminding me that I had something "in my cart" and wanting to know if I wanted to finish my checkout. But I have not heard back on my email asking them what the issue was making it a cat 3.

I guess I can buy it, play it, and return it. But, I would really like to know before they ship it if there is a chance I might keep it.

BTW, the top of the A150 is solid wood. But I'm guessing it is pressed into shape, not carved. Is that right? Is there s big drop off in sound by not being carved? Just curious.
 

adorshki

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I got an email reminding me that I had something "in my cart" and wanting to know if I wanted to finish my checkout.
Suspect that's automated
But I have not heard back on my email asking them what the issue was making it a cat 3.
It's possible emails aren't processed in the same location the guitar is at, might take some time for them to get an answer?
BTW, the top of the A150 is solid wood. But I'm guessing it is pressed into shape, not carved. Is that right? Is there s big drop off in sound by not being carved? Just curious.
That caught me by surprise, that it's solid.
I expected a laminated top in an MIK instrument, also, I'm used to thinking of Guild's arches as being laminated, which is the case with 99-44/100 all of the acoustic archbacks).
But that might also be part of the reason they're cracking so easily. Laminations are much more crack resistant.
(And by the way because of where that finish check is headed under the 'guard, I suspect it's suffering from the problem M described and it really IS a crack.
It also definitely looks like a stress fracture in the finish before it begins to look like a scratch)
Anyway, I'm sure it's pressed not carved due to the major time and labor cost of carving tops. It's part of the reason the AA and Stuart are so expensive, and why they'll probably only get built here.
Carving tops allows a builder to tap tune 'em as well, so it's more of an incremental improvement in a carved top, I think, than a major drop-off just because it's pressed.
And for all we know they may sand 'em to fine-tune 'em too.
If it was laminated then one would expect a more serious impact on overall acoustic (unamplified) output, a muting of the high and low frequencies, but in the trade-off is they're less prone to feedback under amplification.
You did get my curiosity up, though, and a quick google yielded this discussion which seemed to confirm my perceptions of the issue:
http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-42/1330992-
I see Samick favorably mentioned in that thread and if memory serves, they actually made the NS line or at least some models, at some point. I seem to recall it could be deciphered in the s/n.
Ralf knows the history, I've forgotten the details.

Post number 4 in this thread expresses a clear opinion as well, he does seem to think craved is noticably better than pressed:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guitar-amps-gizmos/28354-pressed-solid-spruce-what-does-mean.html
 
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PittPastor

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That caught me by surprise, that it's solid.
I expected a laminated top in an MIK instrument, also, I'm used to thinking of Guild's arches as being laminated, which is the case with 99-44/100 all of the acoustic archbacks).
But that might also be part of the reason they're cracking so easily. Laminations are much more crack resistant.

I've been watching so many videos, I had to go back and double check, but here in Premier Guitars interview back at NAMM 2013, the Fender guy (who owned Guild then) says it's a "Solid Spruce top" with laminated maple back and sides...

(Have to jump to 8:40ish)

 
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adorshki

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I've been watching so many videos, I had to go back and double check, but here in Premier Guitars interview back at NAMM 2013, the Fender guy (who owned Guild then) says it's a "Solid Spruce top" with laminated maple back and sides...

Right, I went and checked, it says solid on the current site, too, but I can see I didn't express my confirmation clearly, only my surprise.
I assume they really do mean "solid", although whether a given maker's definition of that was reliable was debated a bit in that Harmony Central thread.
It should be noted the thread is from '08 too, but the underlying concepts discussed there don't change.
On reflection it also occurs to me that pressing a solid sheet for a top may actually be cheaper than laying down layers of laminate with glue in between 'em, from a time and labor viewpoint.
Unless maybe they get pre-laminated sheets.
On Westerly acoustics at least, they did their laminating in house. Makes sense they would have for the electrics, too.
In fact the steam press they used in Westerly still survives and is tooled up for use in Oxnard today, but that's just for further insight about methods used to make arched tops and backs.
 
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PittPastor

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Well, I just got off of the phone with Musician's Friend. Absolutely no help at all.

Couldn't tell me anything about the damage, and there was no way she could find out. She simply said it "should be cosmetic, and the guitar was in fully working condition." Whatever that means. She also pointed out that I had a 45 Day return policy if I was concerned about it once I got it.

But, of course, I pay return shipping. So, I said: "If I return it, which warehouse does it go back to the one in Indiana, or the one in Utah, because that will change my return shipping fee." Again, she told me she did not have that information and had no way of finding the information.

So, I am no longer interested. If I had a good feeling that I would keep it, sure. But with everything bobouz said, it seems better than 50/50 that I'm going to send it back. And to pay $75 just to play one for a few weeks doesn't seem like a good move. Looks like Guitar Center it is! Their guitar looks to be in better shape, and no worries about shipping fees, should I send it back.
 

bobouz

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I've noted this previously, but will touch on it again. What makes the NS A-150 Savoy unique is the combination of a solid top (carved or pressed) and X-bracing. This is a rare combination in the world of acoustic archtops. Most have two vertical tone bars running a bit inside of the F-holes.

At one point in the '30s, a number of Gibson acoustic archtops utilized X-bracing, but eventually they went to parallel vertical braces throughout their line. The best sounding acoustic archtop I ever owned back in the '70s (when I'd gobble them up for a few bucks at flea markets), was a 1930s Wards made by Gibson, with a solid carved & X-braced top. The second best was a 1948 Gibson L-48, with a pressed solid mahogany top & vertical tone bars. This history is what attracted me to the A-150.

Solid pressed or carved spruce, pressed solid mahogany, or even laminated spruce tops can all provide a very pleasant acoustic archtop tone. Some folks are very fond of the acoustic tone of the Epiphone Regent acoustic archtop, which goes with a laminate spruce top construction & parallel bracing (the best ones were made by Peerless in Korea during the '90s & early 2000s - easily spotted by their larger F-holes than later versions). These generally sell used for around $500. So bottom line, any number of combinations can produce a wonderful sounding archtop - I'm not saying X-bracing is the only way to go, and I'm sure some would disagree. But the tone of that old X-braced Gibson stuck in my head & it's what I was after. The A-150 does a very credible job of recreating that tone.

Also PP, if you decide to pursue one of the two A-150s at GC, call each store directly and have a list of questions ready for them. Ask them to get the guitar in hand & go through your list. Questions should include fret wear, straightness of neck & neck twist, finish issues or body cracks, properly working electronics, and serial number. Like I mentioned earlier, all other things being equal, I'd go for the one that's a bit more due to the lack of runout in the top.
 
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PittPastor

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Like I mentioned earlier, all other things being equal, I'd go for the one that's a bit more due to the lack of runout in the top.

Can you explain that to me? What is "runout?"

Oh, and what strings do you run on your A150s?
 
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bobouz

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Can you explain that to me? What is "runout?"
Oh, and what strings do you run on your A150s?

Runout is where one side of a bookmatched spruce top appears darker than the other - it's related to the cut of the grain. Generally, the more vertical the grain lines (when you look at the edge cut of the soundhole), the less prevelent runout will be.

Some folks think excessive run-out can impact structural stability. Personally, I don't buy into that. Some of the finest pre-war Martins exhibit very excessive runout, and they're holding up just fine. For me, minimal runout is strictly an aesthetic preference.

Current string choice is D'Addario acoustic phosphor bronze.
 

PittPastor

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Wow, believe it or not -- almost 10 days after I sent MF a message, I heard back from them. The guy says he thinks it looks like a surface scratch only, and is contacting the warehouse to confirm. I think he is judging it based only on the same picture we see. One thing he told me, though, was if the damage is more than they said, and I want to send it back, the shipping is on them. I only pay for shipping if I return it because I don't like it. That makes me feel a little bit better.

This one on Reverb has had a price drop:

Guild A-150 Savoy Hollowbody Sunburst Archtop $675

It has some rub points on the guitar top that aren't attractive, but I don't think are more than surface. That price seems really good to me, considering (if I am reading that sticker right) this is a 2017. Also, I appreciate them clarifying that "The action is below 3/32 at the 12th fret and the truss rod is active. It is not marked as a 2nd, B, or used, and ships in the factory case."

That makes it $50 cheaper than the one at MF. The MF looks better overall -- except for the scratch that might be a crack. And they have interest free financing, and a 45 day return policy. But the Reverb A150 seems like it has been priced to sell and at least the seller understands what the guitar buyer is looking at.

IDK. Thoughts anyone? What am I missing?
 

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I remember once talking to a real estate person and they made a comment that some people spend more time trying to decide what VCR they would buy than they did a house. Clearly it's been a long time since I bought a new house! 😀😁😂😉
 

bobouz

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Meh... where's the fun in that?

Agreed - Approach it in whatever convoluted & obsessive manner you choose, or in other words, do as I do!

The one on Reverb looks nice. A little bit of a downside is that it says there's a 10% restocking fee for returns.
 

adorshki

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That makes it $50 cheaper than the one at MF. The MF looks better overall -- except for the scratch that might be a crack...IDK. Thoughts anyone? What am I missing?

Just remembered, those MIK guitars are finished in poly which is pretty darn durable for one thing, and if it's that same one you posted the pic of, how does a scratch extend under the pickguard?
Pointing directly at the volume knob which has already been ID'd as a source of frequent cracking?
Personally I wouldn't have the time or patience to take the gamble, do you?
:friendly_wink:
 

PittPastor

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Just remembered, those MIK guitars are finished in poly which is pretty darn durable for one thing, and if it's that same one you posted the pic of, how does a scratch extend under the pickguard?
Personally I wouldn't have the time or patience to take the gamble, do you?

Oh no... I have no patience at all for things that aren't right when I get them. The wait is bad enough. If they get here and need to be sent back, that is just too demoralizing to deal with...

So, I decided to go with the one at GC. I like 45 days to decide, and I spoke with a guy at the GC that had it. He told me it looks like it has barely been played, and the paper is still in place under the bridge. That seems odd, since it is a 2014. But, I know I will have no problems with GC if I need to return it.

So, should be here next week. Probably should get some strings for it tho.

Thanks all for the advice!
 
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PittPastor

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I remember once talking to a real estate person and they made a comment that some people spend more time trying to decide what VCR they would buy than they did a house. Clearly it's been a long time since I bought a new house! ��������

It's been even longer since I bought a VCR...
 
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