Looking to be educated on Archtops

PittPastor

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I have a couple of Guild Acoustics, but have never played a Guild Archtop. I am curious as to what draws someone to an archtop as opposed to a flat top?

Two pickups make it seem more electric than acoustic. But if that's so, why the hollowbody?

I have played an Ibanez Hollowbody 12-String and pretty much hated it. It seemed oddly balanced to me. Too big to be an electric and too heavy to be an acoustic -- sort of the worst of both worlds. The center of gravity just seemed all wrong -- although maybe I am just used to the feel of an acoustic and didn't give it its fair due. I'm guessing not all of them are like that... But what are the advantages and disadvantages of the archtop (hollow-body or full-on acoustic body).

Is the action more like an electric than an acoustic?

If this has been asked and covered before, just shoot me a link, but I didn't see one.

Thanks!
 

Sleeko

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Coming off violin and cello, for me it was the looks! F holes send me into orbit, love the arch of the top and back, and the tailpiece. When you see something you like, you're more likely to want to play and learn it. At least that's how it is for me.


5tIdUVZ.jpg
 

PittPastor

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Coming off violin and cello, for me it was the looks! F holes send me into orbit, love the arch of the top and back, and the tailpiece. When you see something you like, you're more likely to want to play and learn it. At least that's how it is for me.

I've never played the violin, but I have to say that is pretty gorgeous. How does it sound unplugged?
 

JohnW63

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I don't have a TRUE archtop, I don't think, but I have 2 NS X-175 guitars. The B model , with the Bigsby style whammy bar, sounds a bit more electric and is less loud, acoustically. The non B model sound not have bad acoustically , but that would not be my intended purpose for it. Neither feel out of balance to play, and have a different tone than my Starfire IV and very different than my Strat style G&L guitar. They can sound nice in clean settings or dirty. I like them ! I just need to sell the B version, as I never use the Bigsby and it adds a bit more weight to the guitar.
 

bobouz

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See the thread "Acoustic Archtops?".......Started on 9/24/17
 

PittPastor

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I don't have a TRUE archtop, I don't think, but I have 2 NS X-175 guitars. The B model , with the Bigsby style whammy bar, sounds a bit more electric and is less loud, acoustically. The non B model sound not have bad acoustically , but that would not be my intended purpose for it. Neither feel out of balance to play, and have a different tone than my Starfire IV and very different than my Strat style G&L guitar. They can sound nice in clean settings or dirty. I like them ! I just need to sell the B version, as I never use the Bigsby and it adds a bit more weight to the guitar.


John,

What kind of music do you generally play? And do you switch guitars based on music style?
 

PittPastor

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See the thread "Acoustic Archtops?".......Started on 9/24/17

Read through it. Still am curious about what the action is like. Most of that discussion was around how they sounded unplugged -- which is interesting, but it seems like that varied quite a bit.

What people say is it it is a "woodier" or "more percussive" sound. Some seem to think it is plenty loud enough. Some seemed to indicate that it was good if they wanted to play quietly in the house.

But if the hollow body produces little or no sound, why have them at all? Just so you can practice unplugged? So it feels lighter? I don't understand the thinking. (OK, they look way cool, and really that is reason enough I guess, but I'm trying to understand it's niche).

If you always play the arch-body plugged in, and the body gives you none of the sound people hear, wouldn't you be basically playing an electric at that point?

I saw some videos for the Guild American Patriarch Artist Award. That thing's a sexy beast! But even then, if I'm not mistaken, it was only amped through pickups. Seems like that had a big enough body that a mix of internal K&K mic combined with the pickups but they amp it pure pickup instead? In a band setting doesn't that mean you lose all of that wonderful acoustic sound?

IDK. That's what I mean, I'm trying to understand from the guys who love them because I figure they would know.
 

GAD

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Why do you think "the hollow body produces little or no sound"? That's not the case.

A hollow-body guitar sounds, feels, and behaves differently than a solidbody. Additionally there are different hollow body designs. Different thicknesses (Starfire vs. X170 vs. X500 vs. Artist Award, etc.), different pickup configurations, and different internal build structores (sound posts, center blocks [technically a semi-hollow], true hollow, etc.) all behave and sound different.

It really depends on what you're after. If you want an open airy tone, nothing beats a hollow body. If you're looking for the feel, sound, and experience of a jazz box, nothing beats a jazz box.

Some of the differences may be lost on players without a lot of experience but they are absolutely there.
 

walrus

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A hollow-body guitar sounds, feels, and behaves differently than a solidbody. Additionally there are different hollow body designs. Different thicknesses (Starfire vs. X170 vs. X500 vs. Artist Award, etc.), different pickup configurations, and different internal build structores (sound posts, center blocks [technically a semi-hollow], true hollow, etc.) all behave and sound different.

It really depends on what you're after. If you want an open airy tone, nothing beats a hollow body. If you're looking for the feel, sound, and experience of a jazz box, nothing beats a jazz box.

+1.

As far as hollowbodies go, I've had a '67 T100, a '97 Starfire II, and a '66 Epiphone Casino that definitely were more "airy" than a solid body, or even a semi-hollow, as GAD described. Note that they all have "thin" bodies. Currently I have an '08 PRS Hollowbody Spruce - very airy and open, both plugged in and unplugged. The PRS is somewhat between a thin hollowbody and a true jazz box archtop in regard to it's body dimensions - a little thicker and certainly more "rounded"/"arched" than the others.

I also had a '65 X-50, more of a "jazz box" body, definitely more "acoustic sounding" plugged in and even unplugged. In fact, I had a '63 A-50, basically the twin of the X-50 without a pup, and the X-50 sounded just as good unplugged.

Lastly, although originally I was enthralled by their sound (and still am), the light weight of these guitars is one thing I've always loved, particularly after a few surgeries the last several years. None of the guitars I mentioned weighed more than 7 pounds, and my PRS weighs a mere 5.2 lbs.

walrus
 

Sleeko

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I've never played the violin, but I have to say that is pretty gorgeous. How does it sound unplugged?

It's my loudest archtop unplugged but I don't play it unplugged. I have a Fender Acoustasonic Jr. amp that sounds wonderful and brings out the acoustic side of the guitar. After all, when it comes down to brass tacks, it is an electric acoustic guitar.
 

Jerry1

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I play mainly acoustics, just because that's what I usually have hanging on the wall for quick access. I have one Guild arch top, a 1960 T-50 with a Guildsby. The T-50 is a single pickup thinlline. I usually play it unplugged and it's plenty loud for me and sounds nice. If I want to amplify it for variety, that's a nice option to have. And that's what it's all about for me; having the options to experiment with the sounds. I don't use terms like "airy" because I really don't understand what those terms mean, I just play for my pleasure. When I play my '60 Guild, which is in great condition, I have to wonder about it's history and who loved it to take such good care of it. The sounds produced by my guitars are all different, and all good.
 

fronobulax

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The same (or very similar) pickup does sound different in a hollow body and a solid body. Which you prefer is a choice, but the difference is a fact.

It took me a couple of decades before I decided I believed that and a bit more before I had a plausible explanation as to why.
 

sailingshoes72

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Another point to be made is that an "acoustic archtop" guitar is usually very different from an "electric archtop" guitar. The soundboard on an "acoustic archtop" is two, solid pieces of quarter-sawn spruce that are glued together, carved and tuned like a violin top. It is primarily used in an orchestra setting and has good projection with a mid-range "bark".

The soundboard on an "electric archtop" is usually laminated spruce, maple or mahogany, that has been steamed and pressed into shape. A builder is not inclined to take the time to carve and tune a soundboard and then cut holes into it for the pickups. An exception would be the "Artist Award", that has the pickup suspended out over the top of the guitar. In some ways, the less vibrant the soundboard on an "electric archtop", the better... it still retains the "airy" resonance without the feedback.

I enjoy playing "rockabilly" songs (Buddy Holly, Carl Perkins, Scotty Moore) and Carter Family songs on my "acoustic archtop" Gibson L-50.

Bill

This guy plays some good examples of different sounds on an "acoustic archtop" guitar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOaXOXE9ITg
 
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Cougar

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Another point to be made is that an "acoustic archtop" guitar is usually very different from an "electric archtop" guitar. The soundboard on an "acoustic archtop" is a two, solid pieces of quarter-sawn spruce that are glued together, carved and tuned like a violin top. It is primarily used in an orchestra setting and has good projection with a mid-range "bark".

Quite right. I can't tell you a lot about acoustic archtops other than I've got one for sale in the "FS/FT Area," :tiger: (and they were making them in 1939).

xptapk8kiis1hvmd8x7j.jpg
 

PittPastor

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Good stuff guys, as usual. Thanks.

Another question: When you buy a vintage Archtop do the same kind of concerns apply as when buying a vintage Acoustic? Seems when buying older acoustics, the condition of the wood is of huge concern, as well as the neck angle and "Time to Neck Reset".

Other than looking at the pickups to make sure that they weren't swapped out or something, what do you look for? Is there any reason that you would stay away from an older vintage archtop acoustic? Are they more fragile than flattops? Or less?

[PS: I'm living vicariously through all of you, because there isn't a pace I can find that I can even go and try one of these guitars out! Hard to believe. But seems to be true.]
 

bobouz

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Back in the '70s, I'd buy acoustic archtops dirt cheap at flea markets & fix them up in order to trade them in on continually better flattops (including Guilds). What I discovered along the way is that there were some whose acoustic tone I enjoyed tremendously, including a 1948 Gibson L-48 with a pressed & solid mahogany top, and a Gibson-made Wards from the '30s with a carved & solid X-braced spruce top.

In 2014, those lingering tones prompted me to investigate & purchase the recently released Guild A-150b Savoy, from the Newark St series. It has a solid pressed & X-braced spruce top, and a floating D'Armond pickup, so it is a true acoustic hollowbody. I currently have D'Addario PB strings on it for acoustic playing, and it still sounds terrific when amped. This style of guitar is not what I want to play all the time, but the tonal differences are fun to switch to periodically, and can be a source of musical inspiration.

BUT - You'll just have to experience some good acoustic archtops before you know what tones they're capable of, and whether or not you're at all interested in that sound.

AND - When plugging in, the amp is going to be way more important that the guitar in what you're ears are hearing, so if you go down that road, you have to do a lot of experimenting. If you've heard a tone that's locked in your head as an ideal, try to search out the combination that gets closest to it. As opposed to acoustics, electrics seem to offer an unending number of tonal combinations.
 
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walrus

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Ah, Cougar, you reminded me I also has a '33 Epiphone Olympic. Had a brief infatuation with the way David Rawlings plays. But the Olympic is not really a "big" jazz box, more of a "student version I think. It would not do well in an orchestra setting, too small - it was cool, though.

BTW, good luck with the sale of that Zenith!

walrus
 

JohnW63

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Paster,

I play the archtops I have mostly for Jazz and clean tones, because that is what I am learning with my instructor. I use the neck pickup the most with some neck+bridge stuff. However, because the pick-ups are a lot like ones on solid body guitars, I can throw in some pedal effects and depending on the amp I choose, I can play some blues or rock stuff easily. I DO need to be mindful of what way the guitar and amp are pointing, so as to NOT have feedback. I set one of them in the guitar stand, right next to the amp, with it turned on and left the room. The vibration of the strings when I let go of it started to build through the amp and guitar and I was in another room and heard a loud hum .... Ooops ! I ran back into the room and turned the amp off. A slow building feedback loop was building up.

Here are some links to view on Guild Archtops:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9YKwcr05ZQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sF2apgD654

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqMK25FgmWI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqvEv_Yg7oM
 

Walter Broes

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I have a couple of Guild Acoustics, but have never played a Guild Archtop. I am curious as to what draws someone to an archtop as opposed to a flat top?

Two pickups make it seem more electric than acoustic. But if that's so, why the hollowbody?

I have played an Ibanez Hollowbody 12-String and pretty much hated it. It seemed oddly balanced to me. Too big to be an electric and too heavy to be an acoustic -- sort of the worst of both worlds. The center of gravity just seemed all wrong -- although maybe I am just used to the feel of an acoustic and didn't give it its fair due. I'm guessing not all of them are like that... But what are the advantages and disadvantages of the archtop (hollow-body or full-on acoustic body).

Is the action more like an electric than an acoustic?

If this has been asked and covered before, just shoot me a link, but I didn't see one.

Thanks!

First of all, acoustic and electric archtops are related, but very different beasts. There are acoustic archtops with pickups, but in use, they compare more to flattops with pickups than with the typical much stiffer, more often than not laminated electric archtops.

You could see acoustic archtops as one of the pre-electric guitar attempts at making guitars louder. Be it archtops, resonator guitars, jumbos, dreadnoughts, they all come from the need for a louder instrument. And where a dreadnought gets it with a bigger body than what came before dreads, making for a bigger overall volume, more projection and more bass, typical prewar archtops did it with a different EQ emphasis : cutting power from emphasis on mostly different shades of midrange frequencies. In a band setting, an acoustic archtop doesn't so much compete with the other instruments in the same frequencies : it punches through the mix with a percussive midrange attack much like a smoother, friendlier, woodier banjo.

Acoustic archtops eventually got amplified, and as music still got progressively louder and louder, the guitars evolved too : top and backs became thicker for feedback resistance and added sustain, pickups went from floating attachments to built in parts of the guitar, both for rigidity, feedback resistance and price, ease of manufacture, the guitars went from solid carved construction to laminated, and eventually in the 50's we got ES335's and their ilk : mostly solidbody guitars dressed up to look like archtops, with a few acoustic attributes in attempts to keep that big fat tone.

Electric archtops are true electric guitars that weren't built to be listened to unamplified - even though some of them still put out a good deal of acoustic volume. But the big arched hollow body makes for an entirely different sound than a solid body, less emphasis on sustain, more on a percussive, fat midrange voice.

Acoustic archtops kept on evolving too, and D'Angelico kind of started the development of an acoustic archtop that wasn't the loud cutting midrange acoustic bark-machine any more, but a stand-alone instrument with a gentler, full frequency, altogether prettier voice.

People still tend to call all kind of archtops and f-hole guitars "Jazz guitars", maybe because they were born in the Jazz age and jazz guitarists still embrace them, but both electric and acoustic archtops are suitable for a lot of different kinds of music.
 
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