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Thread: Sanding the finish ?

  1. #11
    Super Moderator fronobulax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davismanLV View Post
    big buffing wheels in the guitar factories.
    There were several wheels in New Hartford and they were in use during a couple LMG tours. My memory is that they were part of a spray, buff, spray, buff cycle but I will defer to anyone who was there and has a better memory. What I recall most about the finishing is that we saw what was eventually announced as the GSR Starfire hanging in a drying room and everyone was abuzz because it had not been announced at the time. We debated whether it was a genuine oversight on the part of the staff or whether we were being "teased".
    Quote Originally Posted by mgod View Post
    What he said.

    '67 Starfire I Bass (Cherry)
    '71 JS II Bass (Walnut)
    '82 B-50 Acoustic Bass (Natural)
    '87 Pilot (Black)
    '13 Newark Street Starfire Bass (Cherry)
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  2. #12
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    All I can add to this is that Guild in New Hartford did in fact use a pore-sealer...during one of the LMG's where we went through the paint/finish area, there were workers painting on this blackish looking goop which was explained as a filler coat...and I think that was a thing with the first Standards, that the filler coat was "synthetic" before the laquer finish coats to reduce drying time...Chazmo, do I have that right? At this point, aside from the pictures, the tours all seem to blur together...
    Collings D2H (Austin)
    Guild D-55 (New Hartford)
    Guild Starfire-4 (Westerly)
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  3. #13
    Super Moderator fronobulax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Ashton View Post
    All I can add to this is that Guild in New Hartford did in fact use a pore-sealer...during one of the LMG's where we went through the paint/finish area, there were workers painting on this blackish looking goop which was explained as a filler coat...and I think that was a thing with the first Standards, that the filler coat was "synthetic" before the laquer finish coats to reduce drying time...Chazmo, do I have that right? At this point, aside from the pictures, the tours all seem to blur together...
    I will confirm that one of the drivers for the Standard series was to reduce manufacturing costs and they definitely used a different technique of finishing them because it was faster.
    Quote Originally Posted by mgod View Post
    What he said.

    '67 Starfire I Bass (Cherry)
    '71 JS II Bass (Walnut)
    '82 B-50 Acoustic Bass (Natural)
    '87 Pilot (Black)
    '13 Newark Street Starfire Bass (Cherry)
    '16 Betts Bass "Walnut Bottom"

    LMG I, II, III

    This space available.

  4. #14
    Super Moderator chazmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Ashton View Post
    All I can add to this is that Guild in New Hartford did in fact use a pore-sealer...during one of the LMG's where we went through the paint/finish area, there were workers painting on this blackish looking goop which was explained as a filler coat...and I think that was a thing with the first Standards, that the filler coat was "synthetic" before the laquer finish coats to reduce drying time...Chazmo, do I have that right? At this point, aside from the pictures, the tours all seem to blur together...
    Exactly right, Bill. I don't know if the pore filler coat was actually synthetic or not, but I do remember them mentioning that possibility to us. What I recall them saying was that they were experimenting around with pore filler, and it's possible that they continued to do so throughout the run of the series. I.e., the Standard series axes were prepped with different pore sealer (than Traditionals, etc.) before going to the paint booth, where the NCL (lacquer) was applied in either fewer or quicker-drying cycles.

    What I heard from NH management was that the achilles heel of production volume in NH was the finishing stage (not final assembly -- lacquer finishing). At an apres-event picnic at the first LMG in 2010, the shop manager, Frank Untermyer, came by on his bicycle and asked us what he thought people would feel about non-NCL finished guitars. Clearly, what he heard from us and what NH ultimately decided was that NCL was sacrosanct when building a Guild -- at least a Traditional model. So, they couldn't avoid that bottom line -- which was about two weeks (I'm not sure I remember that number correctly) in the paint booth for each Traditional guitar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neal
    I am going to hang onto this little F-20 and play it as a reminder that life is sometimes rough, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the damage you accrue along the way defines who you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by marcellis
    Growing old is a bitch.
    Guild 12-strings:
    1978 G-312NT (Westerly) - "Franzz",
    1994 JF-30-12Bld (Westerly),
    2006 F-512 (Tacoma),
    2010 F-212XL STD (New Hartford) - "Connie"
    2014 Orpheum 12 OOO SHRW (New Hartford)

    Non-Guild 12s:
    1970 Martin D-12-20
    1980 Ibanez AW-75 (Series I)
    1984 Taylor 655

  5. #15
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    Yes! We were at the State Park and Frank U came up in all his bike racing garb...thats where I got it! The final finish was lacquer but it was the filler or early coats that were not. Ultimately I believe the Standards became all NCL as well, though not all gloss.

    We saw the first Standard at that time, and also you saw your F212XL prototype...I missed that, but in fact saw and played a dread-12 prototype...that everyone dismissed until it came out (ah yes, that wink from Kim, LOL)
    Collings D2H (Austin)
    Guild D-55 (New Hartford)
    Guild Starfire-4 (Westerly)
    Huss & Dalton DS Custom (Staunton)
    Guild 66-J amplifier (Hoboken)

  6. #16
    Super Moderator chazmo's Avatar
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    :) We were the first members of the public to see the Standard series! In fact, I think I was the first human on the planet to place an order for one, the F-212XL Standard. I did that 2 seconds after I walked in the door after returning from that truly exciting weekend!

    I wasn't the first to get one, though, but I like to think that my order made the prototype I saw ultimately become a reality. :) Speaking of finishing, Kim has one of the F-212XL prototypes with a completely different finish on it. Much lighter color, and I have no idea what pore filler or finish was used on it. Presumably part of the experimenting process before they started shipping them.

    Yup, you saw a G-312 that I missed, Bill. That didn't come out until much later as a Standard series model, but I would be interested to know in the final analysis how many of each they built/sold. I wish I had that book from final assembly! :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Neal
    I am going to hang onto this little F-20 and play it as a reminder that life is sometimes rough, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the damage you accrue along the way defines who you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by marcellis
    Growing old is a bitch.
    Guild 12-strings:
    1978 G-312NT (Westerly) - "Franzz",
    1994 JF-30-12Bld (Westerly),
    2006 F-512 (Tacoma),
    2010 F-212XL STD (New Hartford) - "Connie"
    2014 Orpheum 12 OOO SHRW (New Hartford)

    Non-Guild 12s:
    1970 Martin D-12-20
    1980 Ibanez AW-75 (Series I)
    1984 Taylor 655

  7. #17
    Senior Member adorshki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Ashton View Post
    Yes! We were at the State Park and Frank U came up in all his bike racing garb...thats where I got it! The final finish was lacquer but it was the filler or early coats that were not. Ultimately I believe the Standards became all NCL as well, though not all gloss.
    That rings the bell for me too, especially the comments about experimenting with different fillers, the filler being synthetic even though the actual finish was NC lacquer.
    Doubtless that satin finish was simply the result of bypassing some if not all the buffing stages between coats.
    I always saw it as analogous to Westerly's "HR" finish which was an NCL gel applied by hand, possibly sanded for even-ness but definitely not buffed.
    In fact owners of those guitars say they do become "wear-buffed" and shine up in spots of frequent contact like the edge of a bout where a shirtsleeve might rub.
    I'll bet the New Hartford Standards will too.
    In fact I think somebody mentioned once they wanted to try it.

    And then, speaking of coincidence, stumbled across this little phrase in an ad for Gibson LG2-AE not half an hour ago (because someone mentioned 'em in an F30 NGD thread):
    "Finally, making it even more playable, Gibson's luthier's use a finer grit sandpaper and polishing compound on the high gloss finish."
    Ok I was all set to rip 'em up for claiming that the gloss finish enhanced playability when I remembered some guys mentioned they like the feel of the satin-finished neck that the NH Standards had.
    So I'll cut 'em some slack but I can't help but wonder:
    "Instead of butter, plays like cream cheese?"
    Al
    "Time May Change the Technique of Music But Never Its Mission " - Rachmaninoff
    My 1st Guild: '96 Westerly D25NT "Hally" (10-31-96 stamped on heelblock)
    #2: '01 Westerly F65ce "Blondie"
    #3: '03 Corona D40e Richie Havens "Richie"
    All bought new!

  8. #18
    Super Moderator chazmo's Avatar
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    Al, just to be clear, the early Standards were all gloss-bodied. Only the neck was satin. It was later that they did satin on the bodies as well. I don't know which models or when that transition happened.

    The necks, having always been satin, were finished separately and probably were quicker through the paint booth in the beginning. Again, it was only later when they started doing satin on the bodies, and those probably were quicker as well.

    But, as Bill said, these were all NCL finishes (just to clarify).

    I've played Ensenada-built DV-4 and DV-6 which I think were using hand-rubbed, NCL-based finishes, and those feel nothing like the satin neck on my F-212XL Standard. That may not be how Westerly or Tacoma did it, but the hand-rubbed is MUCH more of a raw-wood feel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neal
    I am going to hang onto this little F-20 and play it as a reminder that life is sometimes rough, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the damage you accrue along the way defines who you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by marcellis
    Growing old is a bitch.
    Guild 12-strings:
    1978 G-312NT (Westerly) - "Franzz",
    1994 JF-30-12Bld (Westerly),
    2006 F-512 (Tacoma),
    2010 F-212XL STD (New Hartford) - "Connie"
    2014 Orpheum 12 OOO SHRW (New Hartford)

    Non-Guild 12s:
    1970 Martin D-12-20
    1980 Ibanez AW-75 (Series I)
    1984 Taylor 655

  9. #19
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    The Standard Series went from gloss bodies to satin somewhere in mid-2012. The F-50 STD I just sold to Bronzeback is gloss, with a finish date of February 9, 2012.
    Last edited by Neal; 11-15-2017 at 02:58 AM.
    Neal

    '53 "X-150" Redburst
    '54 X-200-S SB
    '71 F-20 NT ("Tonya")
    '71 D-25 BR
    '73 D-35 NT
    '81 D-212 SB
    '12 F-50 STD SB

    Others: '34 Martin 0-18K, '34 Martin 0-17, '74 Dobro Round-Neck Resonator (wood), '87 Dobro Square-Neck Resonator (wood), '04 Huss & Dalton TD-R, '07 Rockbridge Adi/Mahogany dreadnought, '14 Huss & Dalton DS Crossroads, Tele Partscaster.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by davismanLV View Post
    p.s. - that's why they have these big buffing wheels in the guitar factories. Now Taylor is a different story. They use poly and it's a good finish. They've really tricked and fussed it down to be thinner than the old finishes. But it's layers on layers and layers and .... if you buff through one of those layers? You gotta start all over and go back to spraying. So poly tends to be thicker so you can work with it and that "break through" doesn't happen. There are definite advantages to poly!! It's not as fragile to the elements and sweat and moisture (but not impervious) AND it's not as susceptible to rapid temperature changes and you won't get finish checking when shipping in winter. So poly has advantages. More durable and resistant to temps. Alcohol and water not as much of a problem. Unfortunately if you crack or chip or wreck it...... it's not really repairable. Okay, I'm babbling.... it's post Happy Hour babbling.... I'll stop now. Promise!!!
    Taylor does have a repair process for their poly finishes. It is required to go to Taylor's repair program, after which you can buy the poly and other chemicals, and a few tools dedicated to this repair process (includes a UV light of specific wavelength and intensity). Taylor does have all of this worked out. I have seen the end result, and it is invisible, even close up.

    What they haven't worked out is that the poly finishes do dampen tone somewhat (a combination of thickness and flexibility) in comparison to nitro.
    _____________________________________
    1983 F-50R
    1971/72 F-212XL
    1993 DV-52
    1996 DV-6
    2005 GAD 30R

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