Acoustic vs Acoustic Electric

Stuball48

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Let's see if I can ask this question in an understandable way? What is the advantage of having pickups in a Flat Top round sound hole acoustic other than carrying one guitar around to gigs instead of two-one acoustic and one electric?
I tinker with machine tools quite a bit and have myself convinced that a metal lathe does lathe work and a milling machine does milling work and they both do their work better than a combination lathe/milling machine will.
Does this question make any sense?
 

AcornHouse

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Assuming you're talking about pickups in a normal size acoustic (as opposed to those that are designed to be played mostly amplified) it's just a matter of being able to play in a group situation, or any situation where the sound needs to be amplified to be heard. It doesn't change anything about it's acoustic abilities, just allows the addition of amplification.

In the olden days they would just mic them, which some will argue (not without justification) gives a purer acoustic sound. A pup allows you to move around.
 

dreadnut

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I have LR Baggs under-the-saddle passive pu's in both my dreads. Easy amplification when I need it.

I notice most Bluegrass bands, like Del McCoury Band, don't plug in, they just mic everything and step into the mic to sing or play a lead break. I'm guessing I probably couldn't afford the mic they're using though.
 

Cougar

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I tinker with machine tools quite a bit and have myself convinced that a metal lathe does lathe work and a milling machine does milling work and they both do their work better than a combination lathe/milling machine will.
Does this question make any sense?

I don't think the analogy is valid. Some will likely say that the addition of electronics in an acoustic guitar tends to degrade the tone or volume to some degree. I'd say the degree is typically so small as to be insignificant. Today's acoustic guitar pickups are way technologically advanced beyond those of past decades. I like lots of sound. I almost ALWAYS plug in.
 

dreadnut

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I don't believe an under-the-saddle pickup degrades the acoustic sound one bit.
 

Rayk

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I don't believe an under-the-saddle pickup degrades the acoustic sound one bit.

Yup I agree , it just makes the plugged in sound , terrible! Lol sorry couldn’t resist hehe 😁
 

Nuuska

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...carrying one guitar around to gigs instead of two-one acoustic and one electric?




You should clarify in my opinion. Since you mention electric - is it solid-body? In that case no acoustic flat-top with pickup can replace solid-body electric.

Once I was hauling my F512 - F212C + F50R to gigs into some quite shady pubs. I was thinking what happens if someone throws a bottle...
At that time I thought a very price worthy alternative to those beautiful Guilds would have been Line-6 Variac ( which happened to have F212 modeled ... ) - for pub circumstances with more or less drunk audience I thought it would have been "close enough for jazz" - however - I never got a "round tuit"


Finally - your example of lathe and milling machine makes perfect sense. I guess that makes it two guitars for you ...
 

txbumper57

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Yup I agree , it just makes the plugged in sound , terrible! Lol sorry couldn’t resist hehe 

The guitar has to sound decent before you add the pickup Ray, LOL.:tongue-new: Just messin' with ya, I couldn't resist.

TX
 

rampside

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Well, I suppose, to the purist, a flat top acoustic guitar sounds it's absolute best when played as intended (no amplification) and I agree with that, but if you're playing with a band with other amplified instruments, drums etc..., you'll have to be amplified in order for the acoustic to be heard.
 

AcornHouse

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Or, you can go the other way, like Townshend's done, and add a piezo bridge pickup to a Strat to get an acoustic(-y) sound from an electric.
 

swiveltung

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an electric guitar is far different than an acoustic with a pickup. It doesnt have feedback issues when trying to play in a group, it cuts thru the mix well, it's much easier on the hands/fingers for a 4 hour gig.
 

Rayk

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The guitar has to sound decent before you add the pickup Ray, LOL.:tongue-new: Just messin' with ya, I couldn't resist.

TX
I’m my opinion UST’s pickups makes any Guitar sound like a UST and it brings all the ducks in a row lol

Well, I suppose, to the purist, a flat top acoustic guitar sounds it's absolute best when played as intended (no amplification) and I agree with that, but if you're playing with a band with other amplified instruments, drums etc..., you'll have to be amplified in order for the acoustic to be heard.

Not ideal for big PA systems but good condenser mic pickup work well for the natural sound . Thing is there very none caring pickups you might think your guitar sounds good and these pickups will either prove it or make you cry .
 

dreadnut

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Years ago I was obsessing over whether or not to modify my original '76 D-25M with an under-saddle pickup, which does require drilling out the end pin hole a bit for the 1/4" cable connector.

As my friend pointed out to me: "Hey, it ain't no frickin' Stradavarius!" I try to remember that, LOL.
 
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Just my .02, but an electric guitar sounds and feels and plays and looks like an electric, and an acoustic guitar sounds and feels and plays and looks like an acoustic.
MANY have tried to incorporate the two...Line 6, Parker Fly, etc...but to the purist, it just ain't happenin'!!!

Like many here, I've been playing electric and acoustic guitars since the 70's, and I have tried just about every type of way to amplify an acoustic guitar there is.
Having said that, nothing sounds better than a microphone or two properly placed in front of a great sounding guitar and mixed into a professional sound board in a studio with a competent engineer at the helm. HOWEVER, that's just not practical in a LIVE situation for a myriad (plethora?) of reasons.

So...for live performances, especially in a band situation, we have to try to find ways to amplify our acoustic guitars.

In MY experience, soundhole pickups make a fine acoustic guitar sound somewhat "electric"....great for picking up the stings, but not so good at body resonance and that full acoustic guitar luscious-ness. And it's hard to balance the volume, string-to-string (the high E and B, especially), even with adjustable pole-piece models, unless you put electric strings on your acoustic and then it doesn't sound so good acoustically. And it really doesn't let your guitar sing!

UST's generally have a somewhat brittle "quack-y" sound, especially when played aggressively, and need a LOT of fiddling with EQ and levels to sound decent. On-board pre-amps help somewhat, but they chop a hole in the side of your guitar, and still not ideal! I WILL say that the DTAR Multi-source system really sounds great, UST, but with a higher voltage for more headroom before quack, and a little onboard mic you can blend in, and with the soundhole controls you don't have to chop a hole in your guitar...but you still need to load batteries into your guitar. And you still lack a little warmth...and be careful dialing in the mic...that puppy will HOWL!

Putting a mic specifically designed for acoustic guitar amplification inside your guitar CAN sound OK, depending on the quality of the mic and it's placement...but feedback is the main problem!

L.R. Baggs I-Beams and their little Lyric mic-thing CAN sound great, especially with their foot pedal pre-amp, depending on the guitar, but placement is crucial and tedious, yet it can yield great results. However, feedback can be an issue.

The best system I've ever used, and still use, is the old-fashioned passive K&K Pure Mini with volume control, with the Pure Preamp. Its a multi-point (3) soundboard/ bridgeplate transducer. Makes your acoustic guitar sound like your acoustic guitar...only amplified. Feedback can still happen, but you can do a LOT to minimize feedback without sacrificing tone. If you have a great sounding guitar, it'll make it sing! If you have a crappy guitar, it'll just make your crappy guitar louder! LOL!
 

JohnW63

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Under saddle pickups don't have to mean quacky. It all depends on what you plug them into before the people get to hear it. I should post an audio experiment/example.

As to the need for one... if you play with a drummer, an electric bass player and any singers, bringing an un-amplified acoustic is useless. Expecting a mic in front of your guitar to not result in feed back, once you turn the gain up loud enough to be heard above the rest is really wishful thinking. So, if you want to play in that mix, you need a pickup. Having one does not break your acoustic guitar.

If you want to record yourself, in the quiet of your own home, and have your recording gear made quiet, so you don't pick them up too, then some good mics will give the best results. You'll need to prepare your room for best sound too.
 

fronobulax

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I'm talking about basses but much of my experience generalizes.

Ergonomically my acoustics and electrics are different beasts. I sometimes choose which one to use based upon whether I will be sitting, standing, moving or even visible to an audience.

I sometimes play in places or situations where an electric instrument is not appropriate. No power or a desire to keep overall sound levels down are two reasons. Sometimes there is an "image" thing. Everyone else has an un-amplified acoustic instrument and the electric just doesn't seem right.

In my stable the sound of the acoustic is unique. If I want that sound then I have to play an acoustic and if the situation requires any volume it needs to be amplified. Tangentially as an electric instrument my B4-CE had much more tonal versatility than any of my electrics but its pure acoustic performance was not up to the tasks I had, so I have the B-50.

To answer your question, if I am in a situation where I want the acoustic - either because of the sound or some other factor - then it is easier to plug it in if I need volume than to to mic it.

As an example, Mrs. Fro and I sometimes accompany small groups singing. We don't always know how many people or how big the room is. We take acoustics with pickups and a small two channel amp. If the room and number of participants are small enough then the amp stays in the car. More room or people and we will plug in the bass. It's been a while since the D25 needed help from the amp but... ;-)

For me they are two different tools but amplifying the acoustic increases the number of jobs either could do well. The built in pickup (rather than a mic) makes that so because the convenience factor will drive me to an electric rather than an acoustic that has to be mic'd.
 

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I’m my opinion UST’s pickups makes any Guitar sound like a UST and it brings all the ducks in a row lol

I actually agree with this. I had a Fishman Matrix installed in my D40C. Hated the sound on the Treble strings. Very brittle, quacky -- almost like a kazoo to my ear. I have a long thread on AGF about it. Drove me nuts. I tried everything to correct it. After awhile, I ended up in the GC high end acoustic room. I plugged every guitar with an UTS pickup into every amp they had, and I always heard the quack. Some were less than others, but it was always there. And in my experience, the louder I turned up the pre-amp, the more I heard it.

I'm not a sound guru. Maybe someone else could EQ it out. But I couldn't. And no one I know could.

Eventually, I ended up with the Fishman Aura. But that isn't just an EQ, it is literally modeling the sound from my Guild to the sound from another guitar. I am currently using the Olson JT model. Sounds nice. Trebles sound like a crystal piano. But, if I crank my onboard preamp all of the way up. I still can hear the trace of the quack.

But, what I wanted was my Guild, only louder. To me, if I wanted an electric sound, I'd play an electric guitar. They sound different, and to my way of thinking, they are supposed to. Plus, an electric guitar has much better action. So if I wanted electric, that's what I would do. Is it worth carrying two guitars to a gig? What is your sound worth to you?

I know guys who have two amp heads they carry around because they want a different sound for some songs.

Me? My wife tells me every song I do sounds like Chapin, so it doesn't matter much! My Aura fits in the accessory section of my guitar case. I plug into the house PA system and am good to go.
 
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Depends on what one means by an "electric" guitar," doesn't it? The Tele/Strat/Les Paul branch of the family is different from, say, the 335/Tennesseean/X-175 branch, let alone the Takamine ply-top dread design formula. And in the retrofitted-acoustic-flattop world, the kind of pickup makes all the difference: mag, piezo, under-saddle or soundboard, with or without mike, and so on. A crappy UST is going to quack, and good design can reduce that somewhat or a lot.

On the other hand, I have yet to hear a pickup that exactly reproduces the sound of a good acoustic--and even with just-a-mike it takes a very good mike and a good PA run by a skilled sound operator to capture what my ear hears from a first-rate instrument played by a good player. (I suppose the golden-earred will find fault even with a decent studio recording. . . .) So amplifying an acoustic instrument is always a matter of compromise and trade-off: how loud do you need to be, what's the acoustic environment, what kind of textures are desired, how fussy is the audience?

I help out with an acoustic-music concert series, so I hear a lot of performance setups. What I've found strange and interesting is the number of (especially younger players) who find the quacky, thin sound of a mediocre UST-rigged guitar to be normal--to them, that's what an amplified guitar sounds like. Older acoustic nerds like me shrug and endure it. Fortunately, older players have differently-trained ears, so I also hear pretty respectable guitar sounds coming out of amp'd instruments. (We're hosting Pat Donohue next month--it'll be interesting to hear what he's settled on with his current rig, which uses a soundhole mag pickup on his signature Martin. We have a small venue with a decent PA and a good sound guy, so whatever Pat wants we can deliver.)

Since this is a Guild forum: I've long depended on a second-generation Baggs Dual Source in my '65 D-40. Ribbon UST, internal mike, and pre-amp with mix/volume control. It doesn't sound exactly like its pure-acoustic self, but it's minimally quacky and not very "electric" sounding. My Goodall Standard came with a Highlander, and that very different design also lets the guitar sound like itself. Both are better through a pricey condenser mike, but those are rarely available.
 

chazmo

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If the Baggs dual source is anywhere near the goodness of the Seymour Duncan "Wavelength Duo" (formerly, I think, D-TAR Multi-Source) then you're headed in the right direction, Russell.

I think we have the Taylor Expression system for your comment about younger players. Just my opinion, of course.
 
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