Bridge Pins

PTC Bernie · Aug 31, 2017

I know, another thread on bridge pins, right?

I made a comment on another thread about my experience with Guild guitars seeming to like to original plastic pins over wood or bone and someone posted the following;

"It wasn't the pins, it was the way Guild built those tops, to function better with lighter pins. The pin material doesn't make any real difference, but the weight of the pins may make a difference. Some guitars are more sensitive to minor changes in bridge weight, others not so much."

I hadn't heard that explanation before and wanted to post it here for your reading pleasure and any comments you might have.

Rayk · Aug 31, 2017

functionality between pin material is a preference. One could say in this case that tops are designed to preform to a particular standard , using whatever type pin if you change one thing it could have an effect . This is the way of all mighty top builders . Changing out plastic pins ( are these on a MIC Guild ?) can change the tonal responses but only every so slightly depending on the guitar . Very cheap pins can kill the tone ! Just saying

In a sense the original comment is correct .

My example of a pin change is on one of my guitars , I changed out to bone from plastic and I get better sustain and overtones . Now I use fossilized Walrus pins . Keep in mind my guitar was built as a overtone monster so ...

Some can't tell a difference yet certain pros use mixed pins to balance out overtones and or brightness of certain strings .

Whether you or I could hear said differences depends how good your hearing is and are trained .

Usually I don't make sense haha so hope this helps

adorshki · Aug 31, 2017

PTC Bernie said:
I know, another thread on bridge pins, right?

I made a comment on another thread about my experience with Guild guitars seeming to like to original plastic pins over wood or bone and someone posted the following;

"It wasn't the pins, it was the way Guild built those tops, to function better with lighter pins. The pin material doesn't make any real difference, but the weight of the pins may make a difference. Some guitars are more sensitive to minor changes in bridge weight, others not so much."

I hadn't heard that explanation before and wanted to post it here for your reading pleasure and any comments you might have.

First time I've heard that too, thanks Bernie.
It occurs to me it may not be the weight so much as the density of the material and how it absorbs vibration (or not)
I'm thinking they're like little nails and a lead nail might be a better "damper" than a steel one for example. (Ray's point)
ON reflection the weight thing makes sense too (although how much difference in mass could there really be?) and maybe the density is just another "variable" in the whole "equation".
Swapping 'em out on my Guilds just to see what happens has been one of those "bucket list" things I always forget about.

gjmalcyon · Aug 31, 2017

adorshki said:
It occurs to me it may not be the weight so much as the density of the material and how it absorbs vibration (or not)

Exactly. The denser the bridge pin, the more string energy it will reflect/transmit into the bridge, bridge plate, top, and back into the string. The D6 I recently acquired off Craigslist has a plastic saddle and bridge pins and I very much want to change them out to bone - it is a great sounding guitar now, and I expect that change will make it even more so.

kostask · Aug 31, 2017

The bone saddle will have a far greater effect than the bridge pins will.

adorshki · Aug 31, 2017

kostask said:
The bone saddle will have a far greater effect than the bridge pins will.

I had the nut done on my D25, too. Enhances unfretted strings and I do a lot of "open chords".

Christopher Cozad · Aug 31, 2017

And should you become bored with the various plastic and bone offerings available, for something almost completely different, checkout D'Addarios Planet Waves Titanium Bridge Pins

gjmalcyon · Aug 31, 2017

Christopher Cozad said:
And should you become bored with the various plastic and bone offerings available, for something almost completely different, checkout D'Addarios Planet Waves Titanium Bridge Pins

As I was typing my "...the denser the bridge pin..." post above, I was conducting a thought experiment about metal bridge pins - lead (nope) vs. stainless steel (shiny). Didn't even think about titanium. Here's the thing - titanium bike frames are known for their ability to dampen road vibrations. That would make me wonder about their performance vs. other metals as a bridge pin material.

Think we can get GAD to go down this rabbit hole for us?

davismanLV · Aug 31, 2017

With my new Breedlove, they avoided the issue completely!! I can't wait to change strings on this one...... (this is not my guitar, mine is blue)

Christopher Cozad · Aug 31, 2017

davismanLV said:
With my new Breedlove, they avoided the issue completely!! I can't wait to change strings on this one...... (this is not my guitar, mine is blue)

Oh yeah, like everybody loves a detractor! Like the smart guy with the pinless bridge. LOL

(I luv pinless bridges, and switched to them almost exclusively on my own guitars awhile back. Would it be an understatement to say that you really are enjoying your Breedlove, Tom?)

dapmdave · Aug 31, 2017

I'll stick with bone for pins, nut & saddle. Each contributes in a different way and to a different degree. But the overall effect is positive for tone and sustain. Costs more than plastic but not too much if you hold off on the exotic materials out there.

Christopher Cozad · Aug 31, 2017

gjmalcyon said:
As I was typing my "...the denser the bridge pin..." post above, I was conducting a thought experiment about metal bridge pins - lead (nope) vs. stainless steel (shiny). Didn't even think about titanium. Here's the thing - titanium bike frames are known for their ability to dampen road vibrations. That would make me wonder about their performance vs. other metals as a bridge pin material.

Think we can get GAD to go down this rabbit hole for us?

Both Brass and Titanium are viable (currently available) options. When I did the unthinkable 20-some-odd-years ago, and shaved the bridge down on one of my Guilds in order to lower the action for an evening's performance (yes, to avoid the inevitable neck reset), I killed the sound. I mean dead on arrival. Removing that little bit of wood dramatically altered the relationship between the the energy needed to set the top in motion and the mass of the bridge needed to sustain it's motion. In a desperate move I found some makeshift brass pins and spent a day modifying them for my purposes. The results were so amazing I amazed myself! LOL

They added sufficient mass to the mix to return the tone to the guitar, and there was a "brilliance" to the tone I did not recognize from before. Since that time, I have purchased both finished brass and stunning titanium pins (some costing a small fortune).

For the curious: There is a sweet spot regarding mass. It is possible to over-do it and add too much weight to the mix. Titanium is unique as it is also extremely light. You've heard it from me: Experiment. You might like it.

The Retro Rocker · Aug 31, 2017

dapmdave said:
I'll stick with bone for pins, bridge & saddle. Each contributes in a different way and to a different degree. But the overall effect is positive for tone and sustain. Costs more than plastic but not too much if you hold off on the exotic materials out there.

+1

I agree. I make this change to most of high-end guitars I have. I does make a difference. The combined effect is amazing tone and sustain.

I assume the saddle makes the biggest difference. The nut, mostly on unfretted, open notes. The pins, yes, a subtle difference. But it looks better than a bunch of mangled soft plastic pins, and sounds great combined with the nut and saddle.

Maybe that's why Guild changed to bone nut, saddle, and pins on N.H. F-50s (and maybe others?)

coastie99 · Sep 1, 2017

There's no beating petrified Porcupine pizzle pins !

Rayk · Sep 1, 2017

coastie99 said:
There's no beating petrified Porcupine pizzle pins !

Yeah what he said !

Rayk · Sep 1, 2017

davismanLV said:
With my new Breedlove, they avoided the issue completely!! I can't wait to change strings on this one...... (this is not my guitar, mine is blue)

Yup me likes

Love this new guitar which model is it ?

davismanLV · Sep 1, 2017

That isn't actually my guitar, Ray. But I bought the Breedlove Oregon Concert Rogue which is a limited edition in blue. There's a NGD post around here somewhere about it. It looks like this......

adorshki · Sep 1, 2017

The Retro Rocker said:
Maybe that's why Guild changed to bone nut, saddle, and pins on N.H. F-50s (and maybe others?)

Started in Tacoma but yes I'm sure of it.
But also remember reading reports that prior to that, getting good material consistency was spotty at best.
And that's not good for mass production efficiency like Westerly's production volumes.
Micarta was safe and consistent.

txbumper57 · Sep 1, 2017

davismanLV said:
That isn't actually my guitar, Ray. But I bought the Breedlove Oregon Concert Rogue which is a limited edition in blue. There's a NGD post around here somewhere about it. It looks like this......

So happy you are still loving that Breedlove Davisman! She is a beauty and I'll bet it sounds as wonderful as it looks, Congrats again Amigo!

TX

txbumper57 · Sep 1, 2017

adorshki said:
Started in Tacoma but yes I'm sure of it.
But also remember reading reports that prior to that, getting good material consistency was spotty at best.
And that's not good for mass production efficiency like Westerly's production volumes.
Micarta was safe and consistent.

I will have to say that when Guild moved to Tacoma and then later to New Hartford they seem to have shifted production focus in my opinion. I know they made a lot of wonderful guitars at Westerly but from Tacoma through New Hartford it was almost like they transitioned the company to be closer to a Boutique builder than a mass production one. The difference in Materials and consistent Quality of materials along with design changes and such allowed them to produce extremely high quality Guitars and still keep production at respectable levels. If there was a niche between Mass production and Boutique quality I think they nailed it. Tacoma and New Hartford Guilds are highly sought after now but I feel as time goes on they will be even more sought after as people realize the attention to detail that these models were built with. I love the bone saddle, nut, and bridge pins that these Guilds came from the factory with and the first modification I make to a Guild from an earlier production era is to install Bone saddles, nuts, and bridge pins. The performance difference of swapping in bone to me is night and day.

TX

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