Cleaning hazy/cloudy D4 NT

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Hello all,

First timer here....
I recently purchased a 1992 D4 NT. i noticed its hazy/cloudy on the sided, up towards the neckjoint.

Being a satin finish, what could this be? And what would be the best way/product to clean the guitar?
I've searched but havent beem able to find any info on non-finished guitars.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.
 

adorshki

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Hello all,

First timer here....
I recently purchased a 1992 D4 NT. i noticed its hazy/cloudy on the sided, up towards the neckjoint.

Being a satin finish, what could this be? And what would be the best way/product to clean the guitar?
I've searched but havent beem able to find any info on non-finished guitars.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Sergio (I'm guessing that's actually your first name), welcome aboard!
In '92 D4's were actually finished with an NCL-based gel which was applied by hand and called "Hand Rubbed" and I believe that "HR" will be noted on the label.
In any case, anything that applies to Nitrocellulose lacquer applies to that finish including possible contaminants which could range from humidity trapped under the finish to outside damage by inappropriate cleaning compounds.
The "HR" finish will actually become a near-gloss with buffing, too. It even happens just from play wear over the years.
Is it in a place that might have been exposed to a lot of sweat from a previous owner?
Sweat contains salts and acids that will break NCL down over time and also give that "hazy/cloudy" effect.
Personally I just use a damp cotton cloth for "cleaning" and only occasionally use a polish.
It occurs to me polish may be pointless on a satin finish but ideally others will suggest some good cleaning agents.
I just don't recall specific names at the moment.
You'll probably also get warned about avoiding polishes with silicones.
The major concern there is that if the polish gets through any cracks in the finish it can contaminate the wood and make re-finishing or patch repair extremely difficult if not impossible.
That could even be another potential source of the cloudy spot but I'd expect there to be pretty obvious finish cracks around the area for it to get into, which you didn't mention.
If you know a luthier it couldn't hurt to let them take a look at it.
 
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dreadnut

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For my high gloss nitro finishes, I use Virtuoso cleaner and polish. I'm not sure if they are recommended for hand-rubbed finishes.
 

adorshki

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For my high gloss nitro finishes, I use Virtuoso cleaner and polish. I'm not sure if they are recommended for hand-rubbed finishes.
THAT's the name I couldn't remember.
I'm sure the cleaner would be safe for the finish but the polish probably wouldn't be needed.
I suspect it's not a simple "cleaning" fix, though.
 

kostask

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If the hazing/cloudiness is near the neck joint, it may have been from the steam used while resetting the neck. If so, it may go away by itself over time as the water in the steam evaporates; this makes the assumption that the steam did not heat damage the finish.. If the cloudiness is further away, it could be anything.

The standard for gloss nitro polish is Heguiar's #2, followed by Meguiars's #9. You can find them at auto parts stores, pretty much around the world. Your satin finished guitar should probably not have Meguiar's #2 used, as it will polish the area to a glossy finish. You may want to try #9 by itself, it may be all that is needed. As I said above, it may be best to wait a while to see if the finish improves on its own first, then look at a cleaner.
 

davismanLV

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Since the guitar is new to you, I agree with the "wait and see" philosophy. If whatever was causing the haze (usually moisture of some sort) is no longer doing it with your ownership, it may just slowly clear up. Wear long sleeve shirts when you play and see what happens over time.
 

adorshki

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Since the guitar is new to you, I agree with the "wait and see" philosophy. If whatever was causing the haze (usually moisture of some sort) is no longer doing it with your ownership, it may just slowly clear up. Wear long sleeve shirts when you play and see what happens over time.
Example of "how long":
I had a sweat damage spot on top of my D25, first noticed it during a cleaning/polish session and the area felt a little sticky and on closer inspection realized it was a little cloudy.
Putting 2 and 2 together because of where it was, right where I rest my forearm on the bass bout while playing, I realized it must be from sweat since I played outside in the sun a lot.
I kept my fingers crossed and left it alone for at least a couple of months and probably even closer to 4, and used the time to get better acquainted with my D40.
I'd check on it a every couple of weeks and finally after that period of time it hardened up again but there's still a faint cloudiness and lack of gloss in that area if you look at just the right angle.
So I'd say a month is the least amount of time you should allow to see if it clears up by itself, and even 2-3 months wouldn't be out of the question. Nitro lacquer "outgasses" v-e-e-e-r-y slowly if that's going to be how it fixes itself.
 

davismanLV

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NAPTHA is a really good solvent on most finishes .... lacquer or poly or almost anything but it's a very harsh solvent. Mostly it's good for DIRTY. If there's sweat or grime or old layers of polish and wax and stuff and grunge.... Naptha is your boy. But just cloudy lacquer, it won't help. It will clean very well. It could not hurt to use it on a guitar lightly and then wipe it down with a damp cloth and then DRY like crazy with a soft polishing cloth. I used it on furniture that was so overloaded with polishes and waxes that ... you needed that kinda chemical clean. It won't hurt lacquer. Or poly. But if the guitar is not dirty or filthy or has no waxes or polishes on it.... then it won't help. Wait... see what it does. Naptha will not draw moisture out of lacquer or other finishes as far as I know.

p.s. - Al that's good advice. You can still play the guitar but don't put your sweaty disgusting arms on it.... without long sleeves!! LMAO!! And also, you could reacquaint yourself with that lovely F65ce..... Do you have an amp for that puppy, bro?
 
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txbumper57

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For my high gloss nitro finishes, I use Virtuoso cleaner and polish. I'm not sure if they are recommended for hand-rubbed finishes.

I am a big fan and believer in the Virtuoso Cleaner and Polish. I had some cloudiness on my F50R where your arm rests on the top/side of the guitar. The Virtuoso Cleaner completely removed all of the cloudiness from my finish with one application. Of course this is on a Gloss Nitro finish so I can't say for sure if it would work on the satin nitro finishes or not but it is designed specifically for Nitro finish guitars. Whatever you do don't use anything with silicone in it as that will embed itself into the nitro and make any kind of repairs or finish touch ups almost impossible to apply properly. Best of luck and let us know how it turns out.

TX
 
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adorshki

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p.s. - Al that's good advice. You can still play the guitar but don't put your sweaty disgusting arms on it.... without long sleeves!!
Long sleeves not an option for me, just can't stand the slightest binding on arms when playing. I move 'em around too much.
Won't even wear a watch on the fretting hand.
LMAO!! And also, you could reacquaint yourself with that lovely F65ce..... Do you have an amp for that puppy, bro?
If memory serves (I think the sweat damage story actually happened around 2005 or 6), I hadn't quite figured out how to play the F65ce yet but it was a good excuse to start putting playing time on the '40, which was still the sonic runt of the litter at the time.
And it might well have been when I finally started learning "how to actually play the F65ce".
The size and shape was such a radical departure from the dreads that I think I finally saw the light late one night after giving the '40 a workout and was a bit tired but still "in the mood".
I realized it was responding better to a much more delicate touch than the dreads.
At the same time I realized I should put the extra lights back on it as I'd strung it with .012's shortly after I bought it.
I do have a Crate 20w amp but I think I've only plugged in twice. I'm just too effin' lazy to haul it out of closet when I know I have to put it away again afterwards.
Besides the apartment not bein' the ideal place for a guitar amp.
The bridge lift on it's finally getting to be bad enough to require repair. The gap's about the thickness of a business card on the treble side now, and the straightedge lines up perfectly with the bridge on the bass side but comes above the bridge on the treble.
I'd been holding out for a local warranty repair but suspect Cordoba'll shirk the request.
Or if they want me to ship it it wouldnt be worth it anyway, besides the shipping risk.
Also I've realized it might be a little more complicated than a simple R&R of the bridge because of the UST.
I have no idea how easy (or not) that's gonna be to "work around".
Suspect it's probably wired right to the preamp and may require soldering as opposed to an actual easy disconnect connector.
Guess I'm gonna have to "dig into it" sometime soon here.
Given my druthers I'd deliver it to the luthier with the UST already disconnected but ready to re-install. IF I'm sure I can do it.
Working space both in my apartment AND in the guitar is the primary complication, there.
I know how to use a soldering iron.
 
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adorshki

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SERGIO:
Apologies for the digressions, didn't intend to "Hijack" your thread, it's just something that's pretty common here as we explore issues related to an original question.
I want to mention that Davisman's got a lot of professional woodworking experience so his input about naptha and finishes in general is VERY credible.
Hope it all helps!
 
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Christopher Cozad

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The surface of the finish:
To the OP: Others have rightly advised you to begin by ensuring the finish is clean.

If this were a gloss finish (added for others who may read this thread, one day), it is not uncommon to see a player rest a chin or face cheek on the upper bout, right at the crest of the bend. When I see an otherwise glossy guitar with a dull (aka "hazy") finish in this location, chin or cheek contact is the first thing I suspect (similar to the crest of the bend on the lower bout, where a bare arm lays against the finish). Others have mentioned the body sweat that gets transferred, creating build up or interacting with and dulling the finish. This can be more complicated to resolve, if the finish is actually damaged, chemically.

There is an additional possibility, and that is if the chin or cheek contains whiskers you can actually abrade the gloss finish, resulting in a dull, hazy appearance. Under most circumstances (unless the composition of the finish has be compromised) the micro-scratches can be buffed out and the finish restored to a shine.

However, you have a satin, not gloss, finish and you mention hazy and cloudy. Would the word milky apply? If so...

Beneath the surface:
As kostask indicated in an earlier post referencing a neck reset, a condition known as blushing can occur where moisture is trapped under the finish or between layers of finish. Wedged right in between waiting for the moisture to disappear and applying polish over the top of it, I hesitantly suggest another step: chemically dry the moisture. Stewart Macdonald sells an aerosol product called Blush Eraser that does a good job of drying the moisture (*if* that is the problem). This product is only recommended for use with a NitroCellulose Lacquer finish.
 
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adorshki

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The surface of the finish:
Stewart Macdonald sells an aerosol product called Blush Eraser that does a good job of drying the moisture (*if* that is the problem, and *if* you are dealing with a NitroCellulose Lacquer finish).
Assuming this is the original finish (and it was the standard on early D4's), it's definitely a nitrocellulose finish but was applied by hand in a gel form rather than lacquer-sprayed form, why they called it "Hand-Rubbed".
Mentioned for confirmation but I realize you may also have been making those points for future readers with different guitars, per your preamble.
 
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adorshki

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And after all this I realized any replies our new member's made might well be awaiting the standard moderator's review of new member posts before showing up, and nobody's explained that yet.
Sergio, I'd bet any replies you've made will pop up over the weekend and from then on they should post in real time .
 
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Thanks to everyone for the replies! I'm leaning towards cleaning and polishing using either the Meguiers or Virtuoso cleaner and Polish. It won't bother me if I end up polishing, as long as you can see the mahogany grain underneath.
 

adorshki

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Thanks to everyone for the replies! I'm leaning towards cleaning and polishing using either the Meguiers or Virtuoso cleaner and Polish. It won't bother me if I end up polishing, as long as you can see the mahogany grain underneath.
Just be aware that the that you could wind up with an uneven finish if you use the Meguiers since it's actually a polish.
It's designed to cut a little bit.
The more rubbing you do the more gloss will be brought out on the satin finish.
The other thing to bear in mind is that it's going to be very tough to get an even gloss all the way to the edges of the fretboard and bridge, if that's what you're thinking of doing.
 
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