White Wood Builds

fronobulax

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In a discussion over here that eventually made its way to the history of the New Hartford GSR electrics, it is said that

At my part-time Job at a guitar store here in Antwerp, Belgium, where I live, I spent a good hour and a half talking to Cordoba's CEO about a month ago. I was impressed with the guy, very interesting, nice man, very civilized and intelligent. He seemed genuinely interested in my thoughts and observations about Guild guitars too.

Anyway, one of the many things that came up in conversation was a possible future "Korean whitewood finished in the USA" thing. It's one of the things they seem to be very tentatively thinking of, not any time soon if ever, but they're entertaining the thought among other things. And I was assured that IF it ever happens under Cordoba ownership, there will be full 100% transparency on what was made where, and they would under no circumstance be sold as "made in the USA" period. Which I thought was pretty cool. Carry on.

Now why would anyone want to do that? It would break the internet if we could not longer make sweeping generalizations about factories being better or worse than other factories and applying the generalizations to specific instruments. Imagine the angst people would have when they could no longer figure out what part of their guitar was made where and when?

Seriously, is this a good idea?

I'm thinking probably. Building the bodies and necks can be highly automated and as long as the builder can meet minimum specs it makes sense to build them at the cheapest location. It is probable that the origin could not be determined just by inspecting the white wood body. Finishing them in the US for (primarily) the US market makes sense. It is easier to react to the market because things like the color/finish or even pickups don't have to be decided until a couple of weeks before the guitar is shipped to a dealer, compared to months before in order to allow for overseas shipping. To the extent that Cordoba's QA/QC can be improved by a final inspection in the US (and the capability to "redo" locally if necessary) this scheme provides for that.

In the specific case of Cordoba the transparency about what is made where would be an excellent policy.
 

chazmo

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Interesting. I missed that when Walter posted it.

I don't see any problem with that at all. Transparency would be very good.

Kaman Music used to do this with the Epiphone products. It can be a successful formula.
 

txbumper57

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Transparency in this situation if it comes to pass would be a good thing but I imagine it would also effect the pricing of the Instrument line as well not being fully made in the USA. They won't be able to pull the higher prices that Fully USA Built Electrics tend to bring in my opinion at least here in the states. The European market may be different. Still a good thing if they are considering full transparency though.

If you want to see how things would go if they decided not to be transparent about the bodies being made in Korea and then Assembled in the USA just look at all of the Hoopla surrounding Duesenberg Guitars. There have been several dealers here in the USA that have dropped their affiliation with the company and removed all of their models from their stores due to the fact that Duesenberg claimed their guitars were 100% manufactured in Germany when in reality their bodies are or were made in Korea and then Assembled in Germany. Not sure if they have changed that or not but all of this took place a few years ago. When the dealers specifically asked where the bodies were made, Duesenberg wouldn't give them a straight answer. That led to the removal of product from the stores and burned bridges with a lot of unhappy Dealers and customers who had purchased guitars under pretenses that weren't necessarily true. Definitely a lesson to be learned there.

TX
 

chazmo

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Right on, TX. Manufacturers really need to be careful about their origin nomenclature in a world that's getting increasingly xenophobic.

(just stating fact, folks, please avoid any political comments / bandwagoning... thanks)
 

mavuser

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it is very expensive to import unfinished products into the USA, finish them here, and sell them as new products "made" or "assembled" in the USA. this is one of the main reasons that an import guitar (finished and completed overseas) is so much less money than an American made guitar (made of unfinished materials from overseas, finished and completed in the USA, such as a mahogany slab of wood).

This was *one of the problems Gibson was having with their documentation and use of imported wood materials. one issue was they were importing "completed" rosewood fretboards from India but then making final tweaks to them during assembly. THAT is no bueno!
 

adorshki

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This was *one of the problems Gibson was having with their documentation and use of imported wood materials. one issue was they were importing "completed" rosewood fretboards from India but then making final tweaks to them during assembly. THAT is no bueno!
I distinctly remember our member Cap'n Juan asserting that the real problem with Gibson's first seizure, the fretboard seizure, was that the wood was planed down to the appropriate thickness for fretboards in India, but that India's export regs specified that EIR that thin had to be of a certain size to be exported. (!!) (I will speculate the the original intent of the thickness regs was to protect a domestic veneer-manufacturing industry)
His point was that even though the Indians let the undersized-but-suitable-for-fretboard thickness stock out (what I think you mean by "completed"), US authorities were CITES treaty obligated to seize it because it didn't conform to India's own export regs. Or at least, it didn't have the requisite exemption from the export regs paperwork.
It's called "reciprocal enforcement".
I assume that the Cap'n's recounting of the facts was accurate in that post, and I'm just retelling it for clarification of that specific problem.
He felt that if India let it out, US authorities shouldn't have seized it, but at the time the CITES treaty and the mechanics of enforcement were little understood and low on the radar.
It doesn't negate your real point which I think is that attempting to hide a source country by adding rework here is ethically questionable.
I don't think what Gibson did to the fretboards after they got here was ever an issue.
"Everybody knows" EIR is (was) the standard for rosewood fretboards at the time.
For them, they were getting near-finished fretboards instead of having to cut 'em to size here, at greater cost than getting 'em ready-cut to size from the source.
 
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mavuser

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no, they were not attempting to call a piece of Indian Rosewood "American," thats not what I was saying. And the thickness of the fretboard issue was just one of the problems they were having, thats not what I was talking about either. they had a whole list of issues, actually. Suffice it to say a guitar built and completed in the USA, from imported woods, in today's world...is gonna cost you.
 

bobouz

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Kaman Music used to do this with the Epiphone products. It can be a successful formula.

Gibson bought Epiphone in the fifties, and has continued to own the brand to this day. To my knowledge, Kaman Music has no ownership involvement with Epiphone.

That said, I happen to own an interesting example of a high quality Epiphone being built overseas & shipped to Gibson for final assembly - The AIUSA (Assembled in USA) Epiphone John Lee Hooker 1964 Sheraton. There was also a John Lennon AIUSA Epiphone Casino. These two models comprised Epiphone's rather short-lived "USA Series". The nitro-finished bodies were made by the highly regarded Terada factory in Japan, and they were then shipped to Gibson in Nashville for installation of hardware & final assembly.

These are absolutely stellar instruments, and command a Gibsonish price on the used market. My AIUSA Sheraton was made in 2000 (first year). The "USA Series" was a limited run item - not to be confused with the more recent "inspired by" line of Epiphones. I think they were one of the best examples of how an "Assembled in USA" arrangement could result in a very fine instrument.
 
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chazmo

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Bob. Ooooops... Sorry, I meant Takamine!

They (KMC) used to inspect Taks in New Hartford, I think. Kind of like a final QA. I think they were completed guitars though, no assembly was done. I could be wrong about that.
 

adorshki

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no, they were not attempting to call a piece of Indian Rosewood "American," thats not what I was saying.

Ya gotta admit the preamble of the post could tend to make one think that's what you were saying ...
it is very expensive to import unfinished products into the USA, finish them here, and sell them as new products "made" or "assembled" in the USA.

But if it will help preserve forum harmony I take it all back, then.
:single_eye:
 

bobouz

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Bob. Ooooops... Sorry, I meant Takamine!
They (KMC) used to inspect Taks in New Hartford, I think. Kind of like a final QA. I think they were completed guitars though, no assembly was done. I could be wrong about that.
Yes, at times it can get rather difficult to keep track of all the players without a scorecard!
 

mavuser

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i guess i wrote it wrong, sorry.

what i meant is this-

for some of the fretboards on some of the guitars, Gibson was importing what they classified on paper as essentially turn key finished parts that were all to exact spec, plug and play, like a kit so to speak, when that was not in fact the case. so the fretboards were supposed to be 100 percent sanded, radiused, whatever, all ready to go straight from Asia, when in fact they were maybe only 75 percent sanded and radiused (or 25 percent...more likely..) and the workers in the Gibson factory finished the "final sanding/radius" in the USA when they were building the guitar...one of the many things they were doing wrong- paperwork wise...

again u pay a much lower import tax for the "finished product" be it the entire guitar as a whole completed instrument, or even just a fretboard as a standalone entity in itself.
 

chazmo

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Indeed! Plus there are so many ironies as the industry churns... Tak made lawsuit-era copies of Guild and then in 2008 was brought under the same umbrella by FMIC. As far as Epi is concerned, I seem to recall a relationship in the early days with Guild in that some/many Epi employees came on board.

Sadly, as I continue my foray into middle age, the details of all this stuff fades, especially of the time when I got close to our New Hartford friends years ago and talked shop with them over dinner or whatever. :) Tak, Epi... Who cares? it ain't Guild. :) :)
 

adorshki

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i guess i wrote it wrong, sorry.
OK I put it all back, then.
:glee:
Actually I was still operating on the premise of an incorrect detail not necessarily disproving your valid point. I just didn't get the right valid point.
:biggrin-new:
again u pay a much lower import tax for the "finished product" be it the entire guitar as a whole completed instrument, or even just a fretboard as a standalone entity in itself.
Now that's a surprise!
One would think it would work the other way 'round, but then it occurs to me this may be an example of a "favored nation" tariff break or exemption: Less import duty on a more finished product.
Thanks for additional info, I know there isn't always enough time to do that.
 
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adorshki

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Yes, at times it can get rather difficult to keep track of all the players without a scorecard!

And at first I thought he was talkin' 'bout Korean built Ovations, but wanted to give him a break.....and Mavuser's post was more interesting anyway... :biggrin-new:
 
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adorshki

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in a world that's getting increasingly xenophobic.

Big angry Amazons with swords.
What's to be afraid of?

xena4.jpeg
 

fronobulax

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Thanks. I had heard something about Duesenbergs but hadn't related it to this situation. As for Gibson my recollection - and poor mavuser has to deal with all the stuff I think I remember but shouldn't have - is that the laws that were actually the basis for the charges all dealt with paperwork. If all parties concerned had checked the right boxes and agreed on definitions there would have been no legal justification for the raid. But Al Capone was jailed on tax evasion charges because that was what the Government thought they could make stick and get a conviction.
 

txbumper57

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Only 2 things in life are certain:
Death and taxis.
But only death is free.
Well, for the user, anyway.

OK, I just have to ask, What does hailing a Taxi Cab have to do with this discussion?:topsy_turvy:

TX
 
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