How does one know when one's frets need replacing?
- Thread starter Antney
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JohnW63
Enlightened Member
I think when the grooves make the string buzz or make fretting the chords cleanly more difficult. I've had the top 7 frets redone on a 12 string because it would buzz just a bit.
adorshki
Reverential Member
I'm being serious here, having had 2 complete refrets on the D25.
And I got used to,and spoiled by, the feel of new factory height frets anyway, having bought the '25 new.
Things might feel different to an electric player, but I don't actually "feel" as much as hear a sound effect.
When you notice you're getting a slight amount of buzz or muting because your fingers're already bottomed out on fret wood and the string can't ring clear, that's' a pretty good indicator.
EDIT: I see that's exactly what John said, too.
The chords just don't sound as crisp as they should be and intonation even takes a slight hit.
It's worst at the first 3 or 4 frets, and worse on the thinner unwound strings, it seems to be more of a wider shallower effect on higher frets and wound strings
A lot of folks advocate getting 'em dressed/leveled, but I think you lose a little bit of "snap" or "zing" on hammers and roll-offs going that route. Plus ya gotta lose some saddle height to compensate and there's another little bit of volume degradation.
If you do a lot of bends it might actually be easier to play, though.
If you're bending full chords on electric and the strings're hanging up in notches I'd say that's a pretty darn good indicator.
:friendly_wink:
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+1.
I had the top 7 frets done on my D64 about 10 years ago.
walrus
I had the top 7 frets done on my D64 about 10 years ago.
walrus
When do they need replacing? When they are sufficiently worn.
Fret wire material, play frequency/duration and play technique have a bearing on how fast you wear down your frets.
The more common nickel silver fret wire wears more rapidly than stainless steel.
Frets on instruments that get only a few hours of play per week might last for several years.
If you concentrate your playing in a particular area of the fingerboard, those frets will wear more quickly.
If you are aggressive in your string to fret wire contact during play, the fret will wear more quickly.
If you can see a divot in the crown of a fret, ideally, it should be replaced, if possible. Why? Primarily for playability reasons, as mentioned in the above posts.
There is a relationship between the height of the frets and the path of the string. Properly set up frets form a level plane beneath the string (neck relief, if desired, is added after the frets are leveled to one another). Fretting a string involves pressing it down to make contact with the fret wire. This shortens the length of the vibrating string and increases the pitch as you move up the fingerboard. Needing to press farther in order to make contact with a worn fret can cause the string to make unwanted contact with additional frets, resulting in string buzz. But it will also alter the intonation, which may or may not bother you. The amount of fret wear you can tolerate can be relative to string action (height). A player comfortable with a very high action may ignore or endure more fret wear. In contrast, it is a bit self-defeating to have painstakingly set up a guitar to have the lowest possible action, and then allow a fret or frets to wear severely.
I always chuckle as I recall the late John Denver introducing his 12 string guitar to audiences that many have never seen one before. He would explain that the greatest challenge of performing with the 12 string was in learning how to tune it. In jest, he suggested that the correct strategy was to first be able to identify that one string that was out of pitch, a skill that could take years to master. Then, of course, tune all other 11 strings to it.
As with that silly approach to tuning, I am not a fan of filing down 20 + frets because 6 + frets show some wear, often referred to as a fret dressing or leveling, as Al mentioned, above. I would rather replace the worn frets and adjust them to match the height of the existing frets. Why? If you just lowered the overall height of the frets, in order to maintain the continuity of your set up you should also lower the string height at the nut to match. And then you may need to adjust the saddle height. Why all this extra effort (and risk), when you could have simply replaced the worn frets and returned to playing? While not as dramatic, I liken the typical full fret leveling operation to shaving the saddle in order to stave off a neck reset. Each approach comes with it's own price.
It is fully acceptable that a full fret job (all frets replaced) would never occur in the life of most guitars. Indeed, such a dramatic operation would typically only happen when changing fret material (switching to stainless or Gold EVO) or fret size (changing width or height). Of course, if you have worn them all down, then you need to replace them all. However, a partial fret job, merely replacing (and dressing) the worn frets, is not only economically advantageous, but advisable to maintain your guitar's set up.
Fret wire material, play frequency/duration and play technique have a bearing on how fast you wear down your frets.
The more common nickel silver fret wire wears more rapidly than stainless steel.
Frets on instruments that get only a few hours of play per week might last for several years.
If you concentrate your playing in a particular area of the fingerboard, those frets will wear more quickly.
If you are aggressive in your string to fret wire contact during play, the fret will wear more quickly.
If you can see a divot in the crown of a fret, ideally, it should be replaced, if possible. Why? Primarily for playability reasons, as mentioned in the above posts.
There is a relationship between the height of the frets and the path of the string. Properly set up frets form a level plane beneath the string (neck relief, if desired, is added after the frets are leveled to one another). Fretting a string involves pressing it down to make contact with the fret wire. This shortens the length of the vibrating string and increases the pitch as you move up the fingerboard. Needing to press farther in order to make contact with a worn fret can cause the string to make unwanted contact with additional frets, resulting in string buzz. But it will also alter the intonation, which may or may not bother you. The amount of fret wear you can tolerate can be relative to string action (height). A player comfortable with a very high action may ignore or endure more fret wear. In contrast, it is a bit self-defeating to have painstakingly set up a guitar to have the lowest possible action, and then allow a fret or frets to wear severely.
I always chuckle as I recall the late John Denver introducing his 12 string guitar to audiences that many have never seen one before. He would explain that the greatest challenge of performing with the 12 string was in learning how to tune it. In jest, he suggested that the correct strategy was to first be able to identify that one string that was out of pitch, a skill that could take years to master. Then, of course, tune all other 11 strings to it.
As with that silly approach to tuning, I am not a fan of filing down 20 + frets because 6 + frets show some wear, often referred to as a fret dressing or leveling, as Al mentioned, above. I would rather replace the worn frets and adjust them to match the height of the existing frets. Why? If you just lowered the overall height of the frets, in order to maintain the continuity of your set up you should also lower the string height at the nut to match. And then you may need to adjust the saddle height. Why all this extra effort (and risk), when you could have simply replaced the worn frets and returned to playing? While not as dramatic, I liken the typical full fret leveling operation to shaving the saddle in order to stave off a neck reset. Each approach comes with it's own price.
It is fully acceptable that a full fret job (all frets replaced) would never occur in the life of most guitars. Indeed, such a dramatic operation would typically only happen when changing fret material (switching to stainless or Gold EVO) or fret size (changing width or height). Of course, if you have worn them all down, then you need to replace them all. However, a partial fret job, merely replacing (and dressing) the worn frets, is not only economically advantageous, but advisable to maintain your guitar's set up.
Cost: Nickel Silver alloy is less expensive and, being a bit softer metal, is easier on the tools. The EVO (a copper alloy) and stainless fret wires will destroy inexpensive tools, even wearing out the good tools faster. Consequently, fret jobs using those harder wires cost more.
Comparison, wholesale price for a 4 ft section:
Nickel Silver - $4.25
Stainless: $7.50
EVO Gold: $9
Sound: Not surprisingly, many players prefer the sound of the softer wire. As with most audio-related topics, it is a subjective thing. I re-fretted my F-512 using Jescar's EVO Gold wire and, apart from looking superb, I liked the sound. When fretting new instruments, I will use nickel silver unless the new owner wants something different.
To my knowledge, stainless remains the winner on the hardness scale. You could say, in light of it's additional cost and tooling consideration, stainless steel fret wire is the harder choice. ;~}
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Westerly Wood
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Does a refretting replace the metal frets or the actual wood fingerboard? The board in the first 3-5 frets in the D25 are filled with divots. This might be why I deal with so much finger pad pain. Could be my age too. I have good callouses but cannot play for long as I want to amymore. Thanks.
In order to address the fingerboard divots (more often caused by fingernails than strings), a complete refret is usually specified (like Al had done to his D-25 twice). All the frets are removed so that the fingerboard can be planed/sanded level once again (by the way, that is a great time to alter the fretboard radius, if you have a mind to).
Many players will tolerate, if not prefer, the divots. Technically, they are not a detriment to playing, per se. In fact, deliberately scalloped fretboards force the issue. Advocates claim increased volume, enhanced tone, greater string technique control, increased speed, etc.
I would cycle through some of the suggested fixes (below) for your fingers before flattening the fretboard (which can be a rather drastic measure). Fingertip pain is a nerve ending issue, and a couple of things can be of assistance in reducing the amount of pressure applied (Note that these suggestions can also help deal with finger/wrist joint pain, as well):
A very low action. There is no reason to have press farther than is necessary, reducing pressure on your fingers.
Low tension strings. While reducing sound output, you also reduce pressure on your fingers.
Smaller gauge strings (see Low tension strings, above).
Altering your fretting technique. Learning to depress a string to just make contact with the fret wire, as opposed to attempting to push the string through the guitar neck, can help immensely.
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Refretting only does the frets, not the board. I have the same issue - the D64 fretboard has some huge divots, although I can't say it causes me any finger pain.
walrus
Westerly Wood
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Thanks Christopher and Walrus. I just cannot go lower tension strings than lights. .12-.53, I have tried .11s and just cannot do it. Santa Cruz has low tension strings too. I think I have to work on nit pressing down so hard. I must over stress. I hold on too tightly as it is.
I think you nailed it. Many guitar players hold way too much tension in their fretting hand. At the very least, your arm grows fatigued more quickly, shortening play (or practice) duration. That extra tension slows you down, too. Mechanically, as you clutch the guitar neck for dear life, you simply cannot change notes/chords as quickly. Of greater concern concern can be the potential for issues in your fingers, hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, neck, you get the picture.
Wood - lighten up, buddy. ;~}
Since we're on board, I capo a lot recently and took the measurement at the 12th fret and capo on the 5th fret up and wow my action is cut in half. Something to think about if your action is high. Seems easier to play also.
Ralph
Ralph
I'm playing .11's, but I know I have a "heavy" left hand, too.
walrus
walrus
Are there different qualities of nickel silver frets available? I notice my mid 80's F44 frets tarnish in about 1/3 the time of my 72 F30.
Tommy
Of the three materials I mentioned, Nickel Silver is the softest, EVO Gold is harder than Nickel but not quite as hard as Stainless (I dulled a pair of nippers after one guitar), but Stainless is King of the Hill.
Great question, Tommy. From Jescar's site:
"Brass frets from days past have given way to today’s standard material, 18% nickel silver, also called “German Silver.” But even with 18% nickel silver, there are differences in hardness, tensile strength, surface quality, grain size, and other metallurgical properties that influence a fret’s quality, performance and feel. Beyond 18% nickel silver, new alloys have been employed in the production of modern fret wire that dramatically improves the performance and aesthetics of the guitar."
Westerly Wood
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Oh man. Totally. And this advice is good for me now not just about my guild.
SFIV1967
Venerated Member
Only the metal frets, the fingerboard is taken care of in a way like this: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Frets/FBoardDivot/fboardivot.html
(you can click on each picture to get a bigger size)
Ralf
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