M-20 issue and how Guild Treated Me

txbumper57

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Could you clarify before I jump to a wrong conclusion and wield the Moderator Hammer?

Are you saying that the Westerly Collection is having the same kind of "it should not have left the factory" issues similar to what Oxnard may be having with M-20's and the Newark Street line may be having with some lines?

Perhaps your thought could have been captured by saying "the average quality of an Oxnard build seems to be trending towards the average quality build for an instrument costing 1/3 to 1/2 as much"?

Political discussions are generally discouraged at LTG and the definition of political is arbitrary, capricious and depends on what a Moderator had for breakfast. The perceived motivation for (and justification of) remarks about Chinese Guilds makes a difference in my decisions.

Not trying to stir the pot here but We have heard of several issues with the Westerly collection OM240 models Quality control issues especially a shipment that was meant for a European dealer. I remember reading a thread here not too long ago about it. There have also been a few threads in the past 6 moths about some quality control issues on some Newark Street models as well including a sunk in top on a new CE100 and some pretty obvious finish/construction issues that should have been caught at the factory on more than one of the Newark Street SF-6 models including but not limited to the center stripe on the back of the neck being a 1/2" off center and the crooked/off centered application of the headstock inlays and Guild rooftop logo. Out of three different brand new guitars being shipped to the same individual from different dealers they all had defects to them that were big enough to not be acceptable for the buyer constituting the return of all three instruments. One of those instruments came directly from the Oxnard Facility with the same pretense that they had checked it over and everything looked great just like jmascis's M20 replacement. It seems to me there have been some pretty consistent quality issues across The main three lines that Guild is offering for sale today being the USA made acoustics, The Korean Made Newark Street Electrics, and the Chinese made Westerly Collection acoustics. I don't think anyone is trying to single out and point the finger at any one region of manufacturing or make a political statement in any way. It appears to me that the statement of there being Quality Control issues is correct in being a Blanket Statement for the company of Guild in general covering all instrument lines since production under Cordoba's ownership began. As always this is just my opinion from the observations and information I have read here on the forum through different threads that have been posted.

TX
 

fronobulax

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Not trying to stir the pot here

Ha!

I either did not recall the OM240 model issues or discounted them because they involved European distribution which we know sometimes differs from US distribution. With that memory lapse it was not clear why the post used MIC Guilds as a benchmark for inferior instruments so I asked for clarification.

Regardless of which factory, I think we are getting more reports of instruments that should not have left any factory for Cordoba/Guild than we did for FMIC/Guild. I don't know whether that is because there really is a problem or whether it is being reported more because more folks on LTG are buying new Guilds. The fact that we are seeing issues from three different production sites suggests there might be a management level problem. That leads to the question about Cordoba branded instruments - do they have similar problems? The answer will help us speculate about what is happening with Guild and how that might be addressed.
 
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I've owned a Westerly Collection OM140CE for about 1 1/2 years and can't find any construction flaws in it. Although it's me playing, I think it sounds pretty good too.
 

txbumper57

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Ha!

I either did not recall the OM240 model issues or discounted them because they involved European distribution which we know sometimes differs from US distribution. With that memory lapse it was not clear why the post used MIC Guilds as a benchmark for inferior instruments so I asked for clarification.

Regardless of which factory, I think we are getting more reports of instruments that should not have left any factory for Cordoba/Guild than we did for FMIC/Guild. I don't know whether that is because there really is a problem or whether it is being reported more because more folks on LTG are buying new Guilds. The fact that we are seeing issues from three different production sites suggests there might be a management level problem. That leads to the question about Cordoba branded instruments - do they have similar problems? The answer will help us speculate about what is happening with Guild and how that might be addressed.

To be honest with you I didn't remember the OM240 issues until after I read your post. I don't really keep up with the MIC or MIK Guilds that much but after reading your post it all kind of came together to realize that there have been some major issues across all of the different Guild guitar lines and not just one in particular since Cordoba Production Began. There are always folks that are going to dislike Fender for what they do to different brands and such but they must have had a tighter grip on QA/QC than Cordoba does now just from issues that keep coming up.

I am not sure what Cordoba's QA/QC is like on their namesake brand of guitars. There is somethig that recently caught my attention though. The Ebay seller Acousticsales is Oxnard's liquidation dealer that sells off the prototypes and instruments from the company that have been discontinued or didn't pass as First run instruments. While a few Guilds will pop up from time to time, There are a lot of Cordoba Brand guitars listed as "B" stock or Seconds for sale from the low end builds to the high end builds and most of them have been listed for longer than 6 months with no buyers. It doesn't say outright that Cordoba has issues with their own brand of guitars but with that many listed it doesn't necessarily rule it out either.

TX
 

jmascis

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I returned the guitar for a refund. I think this was the best call, as I couldn't get past the issues.

It did sound nice for those interested in getting one.
 

jmascis

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Sounds like it was probably for the best. Now..... what are you gonna spend your money on??? :devilish:

That's a good question. I'm open to suggestions. I wanted an all mahogany/smaller guitar for finger picking. I noticed I didn't like the wide fanning on the M-20, so something narrower. If you guys have any ideas I'm all ears.
 

deebeewhy

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Jmascis: If you're willing go up a little in price, have you considered red spruce over hog?
 

txbumper57

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M20's from any other era besides Oxnard are going to have nut width's narrower than the 1-3/4" of the new ones. The early 50's/60's models were 1-5/8" if I recall correctly. On another note there is the rare 60's M30 (which is an all hog F30) if you can find one.

If you don't mind a spruce top I think you could probably get into a New Hartford made F30 Aragon, F30 STD, F20 STD. in Excellent to NOS condition for right at or under $1K. Another option would be an F40 (Spruce Top) from New Hartford or Tacoma as even though they are a Grand Orchestra sized body they are only 3-4" deep and are really easy to play. You could go for an older Westerly, RI. American Made D15, D16, or D17 as they are all Hog and made in the 80's/90's but they are a full size dread.

I do know that Martin makes a 00-17 all hog lower end acoustic that is a bit more than the Guild new but from what I have heard and the one I played in my local store it was a great Guitar. I imagine those would be less if found on the Used market.

These are just some suggestions off the top of my head.

TX
 

jmascis

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Jmascis: If you're willing go up a little in price, have you considered red spruce over hog?

I can go up a little. I have never played a red spruce guitar, just sitka. Which one were you thinking?
 

txbumper57

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Jmascis: If you're willing go up a little in price, have you considered red spruce over hog?

Actually the F30 Aragon and the F40 from New Hartford or Tacoma are both Adirondack Red Spruce tops over Honduran Hog back and sides with Scalloped Adirondack Red Spruce Bracing. Both of those models can be had in near New condition on the used market for Between $900-$1300. They are some amazing sounding instruments and I know for sure the F40 has a 1-11/16" nut width.

TX
 

jmascis

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M20's from any other era besides Oxnard are going to have nut width's narrower than the 1-3/4" of the new ones. The early 50's/60's models were 1-5/8" if I recall correctly. On another note there is the rare 60's M30 (which is an all hog F30) if you can find one.

If you don't mind a spruce top I think you could probably get into a New Hartford made F30 Aragon, F30 STD, F20 STD. in Excellent to NOS condition for right at or under $1K. Another option would be an F40 (Spruce Top) from New Hartford or Tacoma as even though they are a Grand Orchestra sized body they are only 3-4" deep and are really easy to play. You could go for an older Westerly, RI. American Made D15, D16, or D17 as they are all Hog and made in the 80's/90's but they are a full size dread.

I do know that Martin makes a 00-17 all hog lower end acoustic that is a bit more than the Guild new but from what I have heard and the one I played in my local store it was a great Guitar. I imagine those would be less if found on the Used market.

These are just some suggestions off the top of my head.

TX

Awesome, I will begin researching all of these.

I know for a dread I want a DV-52. i just have to wait to find a good one. If you remember, I bought one and it arrived cracked thanks to UPS. :/

Regarding the 1 3/4 nut, is it always standard the strings fan and widen in the middle frets (around the 7th on the m-20 it got quite wide)? I didn't like that, but I did like the wide nut in terms of right hand space for finger picking.
 

txbumper57

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Awesome, I will begin researching all of these.

I know for a dread I want a DV-52. i just have to wait to find a good one. If you remember, I bought one and it arrived cracked thanks to UPS. :/

Regarding the 1 3/4 nut, is it always standard the strings fan and widen in the middle frets (around the 7th on the m-20 it got quite wide)? I didn't like that, but I did like the wide nut in terms of right hand space for finger picking.

No that is not always standard with the neck getting really wide. Most of them do increase in width but it is a nice taper instead of an abrupt widening. I would also throw in the Guild Custom Shop Orpheum 12 fret 000 or Orpheum 12 fret Slope Dread but they have a much wider neck that is closer to 1.80" instead of the 1.75" nut width. Most of the newer Traditional series New Hartford and Tacoma made Guilds that are spec'd at 1-11/16" nut width actually come in right between 1.71" and 1.75" for the nut width when measured with a set of calipers, at least on all of mine they do. If you are looking for a Dread keep your eyes peeled for a D55. New Hartford and Tacoma models in Excellent condition can be had for between $1500-$2000 if you catch them just right. Best of luck in your search and have fun looking at all of the possibilities!

TX
 

jmascis

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No that is not always standard with the neck getting really wide. Most of them do increase in width but it is a nice taper instead of an abrupt widening. I would also throw in the Guild Custom Shop Orpheum 12 fret 000 or Orpheum 12 fret Slope Dread but they have a much wider neck that is closer to 1.80" instead of the 1.75" nut width. Most of the newer Traditional series New Hartford and Tacoma made Guilds that are spec'd at 1-11/16" nut width actually come in right between 1.71" and 1.75" for the nut width when measured with a set of calipers, at least on all of mine they do. If you are looking for a Dread keep your eyes peeled for a D55. New Hartford and Tacoma models in Excellent condition can be had for between $1500-$2000 if you catch them just right. Best of luck in your search and have fun looking at all of the possibilities!

TX

The D55s always looked too gaudy for my taste. I hope that doesn't offend anyone, and I appreciate the recommendation.

Regarding the taper, is there any way to know how much they fan as they go toward the bridge pins? Without the guitar in hand, is it just a matter of relying on photos, or is there something to ask the seller? I never realized they did that somehow. All my guitars are 1 11/16 and don't feel like they fan the way the m-20 did.
 

davismanLV

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That's a good question. I'm open to suggestions. I wanted an all mahogany/smaller guitar for finger picking. I noticed I didn't like the wide fanning on the M-20, so something narrower. If you guys have any ideas I'm all ears.
I'm not sure what "wide fanning" is so I can't address that. In the non-Guild category I just bought this Breedlove and I couldn't be happier!! Myrtlewood b/s and spruce top. They make an ALL Myrtlewood too that sounds amazing. Perfect concert sized guitar that sounds AMAZING. The details and quality on this build are flawless! Oh and you don't have to get BLUE (that's a limited edition one) but they have other finishes. It might be worth taking a look. See here:

http://letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?193659-NGD!!-Non-Guild-Content
 

macandcheese

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Just wanted to chime on again as someone who made another thread re: m20 quality. The finish issue on my original one may very well have been post manufacture and on the way to the dealer, or from there on the way to me.

The replacement is flawless, I looked meticulously and there isn't even a hint of glue visible on the inside. Rich mahogany grain and smell still greets me when I open the case after a few months. As stated, the sound is terrific and the neck just feels "right".

So, while they may be having their growing pains perhaps the volume of some of the complaints - myself included - is tilting the conversation. Guild was also very responsive and more than willing to help me out.
 

adorshki

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Awesome, I will begin researching all of these.

I know for a dread I want a DV-52. i just have to wait to find a good one. If you remember, I bought one and it arrived cracked thanks to UPS. :/

Regarding the 1 3/4 nut, is it always standard the strings fan and widen in the middle frets (around the 7th on the m-20 it got quite wide)?
That's a universal given no matter what the nut width, because the bridge pins are always farther apart than the nut slots. It's just more noticeable with a wider nut.
The fanning is primarily limited by the pin-to-pin spacing on the bridge: a 3-1/2" total width between both E strings at the bridge is going to give more distance between the strings at any fret than a 3" total width, as an exaggerated example.

I didn't like that, but I did like the wide nut in terms of right hand space for finger picking.
Don't forget a late Westerly M20, although they don't seem to be too common. But should have a 1-11/16 nut like the DV52.
Although now that I think about it, there were a spate of DV's from '93-'94 that had 1-3/4 nuts.
There're enough of 'em that it seems like it was an intentional production variation even though nobody here can recall seeing it spec'd in a catalog.
 
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