M-20 issue and how Guild Treated Me

JohnW63

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I am not sure exactly what would be reasonable or not, in your case. The one shipped to the dealer was not acceptable. It shouldn't have made it to them in that condition, unless it was damaged in shipping. Talking with Guild and the dealer to get a new one , as soon as they had some to ship, was reasonable, if you didn't want to find one elsewhere, online even. If you felt that you should have gotten some extra out of the deal, like a online store credit, I suppose they could have done that, but...you where out nothing, since they arranged to have a new one shipped to you, but some waiting. You didn't receive the guitar in poor condition. It was halted, properly, by your dealer. I can see how you might like to get something back, to take the sour taste out of your mouth, because the guitar took longer to get in your possession, but I can see Guild's side too. They got you a replacement as soon as they could. They did what they were supposed to do.
 

txbumper57

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I'm glad you got everything worked out. Personally I would have taken my money back and looked for another guitar as there are still plenty of New M20's listed by Authorized dealers all over Ebay/Reverb/gbase that would have come with the lifetime warranty. The picture you posted shows a defect that looks to be more in the assembly of the edge seam of the guitar rather than a finish defect. I agree with Default that it should never have left the factory that way. Unfortunately there have been other instances of quality issues getting past the Oxnard factory on new American Guilds since production began including some burst finishes that were quite a bit off center on some of the guitars. This instance however looks to be a bit more serious issue than that. I hope you enjoy the new one and best of luck with it.

XNpLepn.jpg


TX
 

feet

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i bought an m20 from chicago music exchange a few months back. after a few weeks, i noticed a bit of raised paint and a rough patch on the headstock. they said it's totally fine, and i should mention it to guild. so i did. they asked for photos and i sent them in, which promptly lead to radio silience. i tried to follow up a few weeks later and still nothing. so i didn't get a discount or a repair. just a cool really guitar.

you aren't alone, i guess i'm saying.
 

Westerly Wood

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wow, just hard to hear re these finish issues and quality issues. glad the guitars overall sound great and people seem to keep them regardless of their flawed conditions, even new.
still...
 

macandcheese

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To add some balance here... I also purchased an m20 from CME, had it shipped to me, and had a way, way less egregious finish flaw (but, a flaw on a new guitar nonetheless...). I had purchased through Reverb, and I asked CME what they could do. It was pretty minor so they took $80 off an already bargained-down price...

Guild on the other hand basically said, for a new guitar at that price point the finish should be flawless (No sh*t...), and they sent another guitar to CME to get set up, to send to me. No questions asked really, and they were pretty prompt about their response and their shipment. A couple of extra weeks but, they made good and the guitar itself sounds pretty dang sweet.
 

jmascis

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i bought an m20 from chicago music exchange a few months back. after a few weeks, i noticed a bit of raised paint and a rough patch on the headstock. they said it's totally fine, and i should mention it to guild. so i did. they asked for photos and i sent them in, which promptly lead to radio silience. i tried to follow up a few weeks later and still nothing. so i didn't get a discount or a repair. just a cool really guitar.

you aren't alone, i guess i'm saying.

Thanks for sharing. Did CME offer you anything? Guild just ignored you?

Speaking of which, as I was considering this guitar, I wrote Guild three times over the past few months asking which type of mahogany they use for the M-20, and I received no response.

To add some balance here... I also purchased an m20 from CME, had it shipped to me, and had a way, way less egregious finish flaw (but, a flaw on a new guitar nonetheless...). I had purchased through Reverb, and I asked CME what they could do. It was pretty minor so they took $80 off an already bargained-down price...

Guild on the other hand basically said, for a new guitar at that price point the finish should be flawless (No sh*t...), and they sent another guitar to CME to get set up, to send to me. No questions asked really, and they were pretty prompt about their response and their shipment. A couple of extra weeks but, they made good and the guitar itself sounds pretty dang sweet.

Well that is good, but why do they all have finish flaws!?
What was the flaw? Do you still have a photo of it that you can upload?
 

macandcheese

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Ain't no thing compared to this thread's issues, at all...

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...-M20-Quality&p=1748790&viewfull=1#post1748790

In hindsight it was pretty dang minor, but, still a finish issue with a brand new guitar. At least in my case Guild was super helpful and more than willing to replace it even for something minor. They should be trying extra hard to keep QC high in their first few runs. Haven't seen it about any others besides the M20 so that's encouraging ... I am very happy with the guitar they sent as a replacement, if that counts for anything.
 

twocorgis

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Not much to add to this thread other than say that there seem to be a lot of issues with the early production examples from the Oxnard plant, along with inconsistent customer service from CMG, but I've already seen that. There are at least a couple of members here that own Orpheums with serious neck angle issues, and last I heard neither of them got much traction with warranty assistance.
 

jmascis

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there seem to be a lot of issues with the early production examples from the Oxnard plant.

I know. I was just reading some other threads. They're gaining a bad reputation pretty fast.
I'm bracing myself for finish issues...I got the sunburst, and I'm reading that it's off center on a lot of them?

Do these guys know how to build guitars? What's going on in Oxnard?
 

txbumper57

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I know. I was just reading some other threads. They're gaining a bad reputation pretty fast.
I'm bracing myself for finish issues...I got the sunburst, and I'm reading that it's off center on a lot of them?

Do these guys know how to build guitars? What's going on in Oxnard?

From my understanding every one at Oxnard in guitar building and assembly positions were new hires and none of the craftsmen and women from New Hartford made the transition with the exception of Ren Ferguson. Ren did design the new factory at Oxnard but right around the time they started actually producing guitars Ren retired from Guild and went on to other ventures. I'm sure there are folks there that have guitar building experience. They started off with the most basic of build models to "cut their teeth on" in the M20/D20 line as sort of a on the job learning process. The finish on those guitars is a catalyzed varnish which is much simpler to apply than Nitro. The neck joints are Mortise and tenon on those M20/D20 guitars which is also a much easier neck joint to assemble than a traditional Dovetail joint that most Guilds have had throughout history. When they started spraying Gloss Nitro on some models they had some growing pains as well. There was more than one example of the first Gloss Nitro models at Oxnard having finish cracks and blistering throughout. Some of those guitars wound up on reverb as Blems or seconds. There are going to be growing pains with any New guitar company which is what Guild in Oxnard is in my opinion. They don't have the years of Building experience and design capabilities that Guild had at its disposal before the sale from Fender. Heck Cordoba didn't even get any Build or production records in the purchase from Fender so it is like they are starting from scratch. To prove this a member here recently inquired through Guild why some used F50's have tortoise pickguards and no abalone rosettes and other have Abalone rosettes and black pickguards. Guild's response was, "It was probably due to a lack of materials at the time the guitar was made". They just don't have a solid connection with the history of the brand itself in my opinion. This is not their fault by any means, it is just going to take some more time in my opinion for them to solidify what they are doing now and what direction they want to take the brand in design, quality, and build aspects.

Bottom line is it is going to take some time for "Guildoba" as I refer to them to work out the bugs and allow their craftsman/women to learn and improve their skills. Personally I haven't purchased anything from "Guildoba" and won't until they prove they can bring their quality and level of Craftsmanship to close to what it was throughout the Late Westerly through the New Hartford years. That may take 3-5 years and then again that may never happen. I know I am not the only one here who feels this way as I have spoken with others that are taking the same approach. The only way to get better at something is to keep learning and keep trying. Hopefully they will.

TX
 

jmascis

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Bottom line is it is going to take some time for "Guildoba" as I refer to them to work out the bugs and allow their craftsman/women to learn and improve their skills. Personally I haven't purchased anything from "Guildoba" and won't until they prove they can bring their quality and level of Craftsmanship to close to what it was throughout the Late Westerly through the New Hartford years. That may take 3-5 years and then again that may never happen. I know I am not the only one here who feels this way as I have spoken with others that are taking the same approach. The only way to get better at something is to keep learning and keep trying. Hopefully they will.TX

Cool, thanks. Now I feel stupid for buying an M-20, though. Haha.
I paid a lot for an instrument made by greenhorns.

Why didn't they take the east coast staff out west?
 

adorshki

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I am not sure exactly what would be reasonable or not, in your case. The one shipped to the dealer was not acceptable. It shouldn't have made it to them in that condition, unless it was damaged in shipping. Talking with Guild and the dealer to get a new one , as soon as they had some to ship, was reasonable, if you didn't want to find one elsewhere, online even. If you felt that you should have gotten some extra out of the deal, like a online store credit, I suppose they could have done that, but...you where out nothing, since they arranged to have a new one shipped to you, but some waiting. You didn't receive the guitar in poor condition. It was halted, properly, by your dealer. I can see how you might like to get something back, to take the sour taste out of your mouth, because the guitar took longer to get in your possession, but I can see Guild's side too. They got you a replacement as soon as they could. They did what they were supposed to do.
I was trying to figure out how to say all that yesterday, and you did it perfectly.
I agree with every single word.
And I think that's a first for us. :glee:
 

adorshki

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Cool, thanks. Now I feel stupid for buying an M-20, though. Haha.
I paid a lot for an instrument made by greenhorns.
Let's add some balance here:
Cordoba already had a high-end classical guitar manufacturing operation in place in Oxnard when they bought Guild.
They do have some highly qualified master luthiers and I'd be kinda surprised if they weren't made available to help the new hires get up to speed.
Sure there are differences in flat-top and classical construction but there's a ton of overlap too.
So it's not like there's nobody there with any building experience.
And I'd be pretty surprised if the "new guys" didn't have at least some kind of prior woodworking experience.
There's also Taylor and Larrivee within walking distance of Guild's new building and who knows if they might have lured employees from those outfits?

Why didn't they take the east coast staff out west?
Just like Westerly, offers were made and nobody took 'em up on it.
Cost of housing's crazy out here, besides intangibles like family roots and ties which understandably seem to be deeper and older on the east coast.
Besides the fact we're talking a whole new owner, not just a relocation under the same owner.
 

jmascis

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Let's add some balance here:
Cordoba already had a high-end classical guitar manufacturing operation in place in Oxnard when they bought Guild.
They do have some highly qualified master luthiers and I'd be kinda surprised if they weren't made available to help the new hires get up to speed.
Sure there are differences in flat-top and classical construction but there's a ton of overlap too.

Yeah, good point. And the M-20 has gotten fantastic reviews online by reputable magazines and youtube channels. Most user reviews are excellent, and it sounds great on every YT video I have seen, too.
I will let you guys know in a few days when I get mine. I'm just crossing my fingers there are no finish issues, etc to prolong this buy. The Guild rep told me he went over it himself before shipping, so that's a second level of QC this one got.
 

txbumper57

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Cool, thanks. Now I feel stupid for buying an M-20, though. Haha.
I paid a lot for an instrument made by greenhorns.

I wouldn't feel stupid for buying a M20 if I were you. If you like the guitar and it plays and sounds like you want it to then there should be no issues. For all of the ones we have seen with build issues I am sure there are 10-20 more that were built right. Enjoy your M20. If you love it and it is what you wanted then everything should be alright.


Let's add some balance here:
Cordoba already had a high-end classical guitar manufacturing operation in place in Oxnard when they bought Guild.
They do have some highly qualified master luthiers and I'd be kinda surprised if they weren't made available to help the new hires get up to speed.
Sure there are differences in flat-top and classical construction but there's a ton of overlap too.
So it's not like there's nobody there with any building experience.
And I'd be pretty surprised if the "new guys" didn't have at least some kind of prior woodworking experience.
There's also Taylor and Larrivee within walking distance of Guild's new building and who knows if they might have lured employees from those outfits?

All good points Al. Still at the end of the day Cordoba's main Acoustic Steel String guitars before the Guild purchase were from overseas builders which is probably the reason they decided to buy Guild in the first place to have a foothold in the American Made steel String acoustic Guitar market. Regardless of whether or not their "Master Luthiers" guided the new employees, there have still been quite a few issues slipping through QA/QC since Oxnard began producing Guild guitars. Even if they got some employees from Larrivee or Taylor they had the same amount of experience building Guilds when they got to Oxnard as the folks that got hired without being former employees of Taylor or Larrivee. That was why I referred to Oxnard as being more of a New Guitar company in it's infancy than a continuation of Guild as we know it. It is not a bad thing, just different and with anything new like that there are going to be some growing pains.

TX
 

Westerly Wood

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That was why I referred to Oxnard as being more of a New Guitar company in it's infancy than a continuation of Guild as we know it. It is not a bad thing, just different and with anything new like that there are going to be some growing pains.

TX

totally agree Tx...and the MIC Guilds appear to get better reviews re fit and finish and build quality right now than Oxnard too. But I give them time grow, it will take time. Luke was a pretty decent Jedi but he left Yoda way too early...and it showed.
 

gibsonjunkie

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As far as the quality of workmanship - there is one person on the assembly line that can't be a new-by - the guy who signs the tag stuffs it in a case/box and sends it out the door. Even I (with no build experience) would know enough not to let a guitar with that big a defect leave the factory.
 

feet

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Thanks for sharing. Did CME offer you anything? Guild just ignored you?

Speaking of which, as I was considering this guitar, I wrote Guild three times over the past few months asking which type of mahogany they use for the M-20, and I received no response.

here's what they told me:

"Thanks for reaching out to us! That sounds like just what you said a little raised grain or a paint run. Nothing to worry about in my opinion -but if you did want to have it altered in any way guild would be able to help you with that through their manufacturer's warranty!"

so i contacted guild. they were quick to respond, maybe within a day or so and asked for photos. that was the last i heard from them. a week or two later, i sent a followup email. still waiting on a response. it isn't a huge deal, but its something. i wouldn't have paid full price if it had been disclosed beforehand. cme used generic photos so there was no way for me to know. i didn't even notice it until a few weeks later. probably too late to send it back. i'm not far from the plant and i'd be happy to take it in, but i really just want to hear what's up. its due for a trip to a luthier anyway for a setup and strap button installation, etc. if i have to fix the finish issue myself then say so. i'm tired of waiting around on them.

here are the photos. not a huge deal, but quite obviously a flaw.

m20 1 by the photographic minority, on Flickr

m20 2 by the photographic minority, on Flickr
 

walrus

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totally agree Tx...and the MIC Guilds appear to get better reviews re fit and finish and build quality right now than Oxnard too. But I give them time grow, it will take time. Luke was a pretty decent Jedi but he left Yoda way too early...and it showed.

Way to get a Star Wars reference in there without actually veering! Nice! :biggrin-new:

walrus'
 

adorshki

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Not a huge deal, but quite obviously a flaw.
That's the kind of thing I noticed on a $500.00 imported Epiphone about 10 or 12 years ago that made me realize just how sweet my D25 was, fit and finish-wise.
The Epi also featured poorly mounted fake abalone binding that completely turned me off.
Acceptable on a sub-$1000.00 import perhaps, but not on a plus-$1000.00 domestic built.
I'm wondering if there's a problem with touching-up finish on the "catalyzed varnish" ?
Might explain why they're being let out and why they haven't answered you yet.

Speaking of which, as I was considering this guitar, I wrote Guild three times over the past few months asking which type of mahogany they use for the M-20, and I received no response.
OK, speculation on my part here but I'd be willing to bet the real answer is that they're using whichever variety has best market price while meeting their grading specs when they need to buy, and it's probably African.
The term "Mahogany" does cover a variety of species*** and all the "genuine" (Swietenia species)Western hemisphere species are all CITES regulated now, so that may make it difficult to commit to it always being a given variety.
Example: the MIC's have spec'd "African Mahogany" which still gives 'em some leeway and Guild was already using Honduran as far back as '96.
But as I recall that's becoming ever more costly, thus the move to African varieties.
Also, if they get a cost break on volume, it'd only make (economic) sense to use the same stuff domestically that they get for China production.

***https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahogany
 
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